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The Last of the Civworthy

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by The Kingmaker, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Ages ago, out of curiosity, I wanted to tally up how many civilizations had ever been included in a Civ game. I counted the HRE and Germany as one, as well as the various incarnations of the Native Americans. I also included the Songhai and Siamese, which are likely to be featured in Civ5. What I found was that there is a total of just 36 civs that have ever been included in Civ.

    Then the thought came to me: are there any other civs worthy to be included in a game? Each new Civ game has added new civilizations to the mix; how many other viable options are there? I set myself a goal to flesh the list out to 50, a nice, round, complete-feeling number. This task proved surprisingly hard. After adding in a few easy picks, the last several slots took quite a while to fill. Even then I remain somewhat unsatisfied.

    My criteria were as follows:

    1. Did the Civ in question make major contributions to human society (cultural, religious, architectural, military, etc.)?

    2. Was the Civ in question independent for at least part of its history? Are they different enough from previously included Civs?

    3. Can a definitive leader, city list and unique unit be chosen for the Civ?

    4. As a tie-breaker to weed out possible candidates, I also made the following considerations: How famous is the Civ in the western world? Would western Civ-gamers want to play this civ? Is the civ from an as yet unrepresented region? What would it add to the game?

    Here is my list, with a few comments. I consider it unfinished, as I remain unsatisfied with its content. What do you like or dislike about it? What would you change? Who else should be represented?

    The List:

    37. Hebrews (Solomon) - not yet included for modern political reasons, tenable if only the ancient civ is represented

    38. Moors (al-Mansur) - had a golden age of Islamic architecture and science in medieval al-Andalus (Spain), could be considered too similar to Arabs

    39. Phoenicians (Pygmalion) - great explorers and merchants utilized by the entire western world in their day, but similar to Carthage as its founders

    40. Assyrians (Ashurbanipal) - deadly conquerors and skilled artisans, not yet included because of similarity to other Mesopotamians

    41. Ku****es/Nubians (Taharqa) - influential African nation, but possibly too intertwined with Egyptian history

    42. Srivijaya/Malaysians (Samaratunga) - an unrepresented region with great achievements, but painfully obscure to westerners

    43. Tibetans (Songtsän Gampo) - an important Asian civ, but politically charged in modern times

    44. Vietnamese (Lý Công Uẩn) - details are often obscure to the west, not as major as some of their neighbors

    45. Polynesians (Kamehameha) - very familiar and as yet unrepresented, but not especially major in terms of global significance

    46. Minoans (Satur) - major ancient sea empire, probably the inspiration for Atlantis, but not much information yet available on all their accomplishments

    47. Chola/Tamil (Rajendra) - important SE Asian empire, but unfamiliar to westerners and possibly considered too similar to India

    48. Gran Colombians/Latin Americans (Simon Bolivar) - from a significant and underrepresented region, but it is an amalgam civ, which I usually like to avoid

    49. Kushans (Kanishka) - powerful central Asian empire, but very obscure

    50. Polish (Jan Sobieski) - Europe is already heavily represented but what can I say? Poland could not be escaped in the end :(

    Honorable Mention: Olmecs - we just don't have enough info to do them yet, not so much as a leader name
     
  2. Mad Man

    Mad Man Your lord and master

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    What about the Inuit and the Bactria?
     
  3. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    The Inuit do not meet the criteria. Who would be their leader? What would be their city list? The game is Civilization, after all, not merely "Cultures."

    Bactria I had briefly considered, but thought they'd be better represented by any of the larger empires that was constantly ruling them. The Kushan Empire (which I included in the list), for example, ruled Bactria. I don't know that they're major enough on their own.
     
  4. tifa9292

    tifa9292 Chieftain

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    mexico, vietnam, burma, canton, huns, brazil to get started
     
  5. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    As a Viet myself, I would say that most Viets probably would have some other leaders in mind besides Ly Cong Uan - not that he wasn't a great leader, but there are in my opinion several other leaders that the Vietnamese would think of:

    - Le Loi would probably be the one the Viets think of the most. He kicked out the Chinese after their last "domination" of Vietnam in the 1400s, founded the Le dynasty, and also expanded and solidified Vietnam's position.
    - Quang Truong - arguably the last great monarch of Vietnam, he founded the short-lived Tay Son dynasty in the late 1700s. His great achievement is the successful defense of Vietnam against the Qing Dynasty, as well as almost unifying Vietnam after several centuries of civil war. He died kind of early, so many believed that had he won Vietnam would be so much more powerful.
    - Trung Sisters - my personal favorite, the Trung Sisters were similar to Boadicea by the fact that they led a large rebellion against an imperial power (Han China). The difference is that the Trung Sisters managed to keep an independent kingdom for several years. AND they had an army of mostly women. AND they rode on gigantic elephants. They are arguably the greatest Vietnamese heroes... and wouldn't it be great if Civ had not just one female Asian leader, but TWO in one? :lol:

    Just personal thoughts on Vietnam.

    Also, for the Central Asian civ, I think there are many more important and powerful empires besides the Kushans who would be just as interesting - the Uighurs, the Seljuks, the Khitan, and the Khazars, just to name a few.
     
  6. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Mexico: Aztecs represent them
    Vietnam: YES, see my list
    Burma: Possibly...
    Canton: Huh? China's already in.
    Huns: NO. They're barbarians. What would their city list be?
    Brazil: Covered by Portugal

    Again... it's Civilization, not Nation-States or Cultures...
     
  7. Mad Man

    Mad Man Your lord and master

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    The leader for the Inuit would be tough, but a citylist is completely doable, just look at a map of Greenland or Northern Canada, most of the cities are in Inuit. As for Bactria I don't know an awful lot about them but I here they where very important in there day.
     
  8. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Thanks for the helpful tips on Vietnam. :goodjob:

    The problem is what exactly to do with steppe nomads. I considered all of these, but felt that the Seljuks are covered under the Turks, the Khitan are subsumed by China and Mongolia, and the Uighurs and Khazars are too difficult to implement. The civilizations need to be major enough to make it in. The Kushans were a bit of a stretch themselves, IMHO, but I chose them because they lived in cities for the most part and still cover an underrepresented area.
     
  9. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    The Uighurs would also make the cut if you want something to cover an underrepresented area. They were also an important part of the Silk Road, and you could call them "civilized" nomads (they developed the script that was used by Genghis Khan and his armies).

    Anyhow, another group you can consider are the Timurids. Tamerlane certainly made his mark on history.
     
  10. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I really don't think the Inuit are possible.

    As for Bactria, they're scraping the bottom of the barrel. There are plenty of more worthy cultures that need to come first. After all, my list was only up to the 50th civ.
     
  11. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Uighurs would still be very difficult in comparison with the other Civs I've listed.

    I had also considered the Timurids, the Mughals, and other dynasties of Mongol descent. I'm not sure how they would be implemented though, since the Timurids were a Mongol dynasty governing Persia, and the Mughals the same in India. I figured they'd be considered too similar, and that their civworthy leaders (Timur for the Timurids and Akbar for the Mughals) would be better served as leaders in other civs.
     
  12. Dale

    Dale Deity

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    Majapahit instead of Srivijaya.
     
  13. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Hello there, Dale. Good to see a familiar face.

    Maybe they could both be covered under a larger "Malaysia/Indonesia/Java" tag? Both Majapahit and Srivijaya are pretty obscure to the average westerner. What would be the most recognizable Civ name? Who would their leader be?
     
  14. Mad Man

    Mad Man Your lord and master

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    I thought you'd pick Sealand:p
     
  15. Dale

    Dale Deity

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    Alexander is deserving of a serious discussion. ;)
     
  16. Dale

    Dale Deity

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    Well neither is really recognisable, but if there was one to pick I'd say Majapahit since it was they who the Europeans found. Plus, they were much larger (absorbing Srivijaya in the 14th Century). Majapahit lands were extended over modern day Malaysia, Singapore and most of Indonesia except Borneo.

    Leader: Hayam Wuruk. Reigned 1350-1389 and extended Majapahit to it's height of power.

    A computerised image based off carvings at the time.
     
  17. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Selucid Empire, maybe? Unless you count that as Greece or Persia.
    Ptolomeic Egypt, or Nubian Egpyt, neither terribly well covered by standard Egpyt.
    Sweden?
    Potentially Scotland, separate from England.
    Mughal Empire, as separate from India or Persia.
     
  18. Eastwinn

    Eastwinn Chieftain

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    Hapsburg? (is that already in the game?)
    Florence?
    Prussia? (is that already in the game?)
    Austria-Hungary? (is that already in the game?)
    South Africa?


    Good call with Assyrians.
     
  19. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Thanks very much. :goodjob:

    Good info. :b: I still wonder if there isn't a more suitable demonym available for the Civ. After all, Srivijaya and Majapahit were different dynasties that ruled the same region. In other cases we have simply China (instead of Qin, Han, Tang, etc.) or India (instead of Maurya, Gupta, Mughal, etc.).

    What would be the most suitable and recognizable demonym for this Civ?
     
  20. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Seleucids and Ptolemids are simply dynasties of Civs that we already have.
    Nubian Egypt is covered by the Nubian Civ in my list (see above.)
    Sweden is covered by "Vikings" the catch-all for all of Scandinavia.
    Scotland is covered by the Celts.
    The Mughals are covered by India.
     

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