The Late Game Micromanagement... It's Unbearable!

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by Joij21, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. Joij21

    Joij21 Emperor

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    I've now gotten to the year 1711 A.D. on Marathon speed, and if you haven't already guessed by the title, I have some major problems with enjoying the late game.

    After colonizing and conquering over a dozen settlements I have a micromanagement issue, specifically with all the colonists and being too overwhelmed with where to place them. There are way too many of them! What ever am I going to do? So much of my turns are being bogged down with choosing where to settle them and how to manage each of their jobs. I should be a governor of a laissez-faire colony, not some communist central planner!

    I wish the colonists themselves had their own AI where they would automatically settle in colonies that have improvements or buildings related to their profession as well as settle in cities that have enough food/happiness for them. Just too much time is being wasted for being their brain.
     
  2. CptBadger

    CptBadger Warlord

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    I mean, I have a couple of suggestions. If its that late and only have a dozen colonies, that's likely part of the issue. If map is large enough, I would easily have 30plus cities by then.

    Also, in terms of people, by that stage you should be focusing on war preparations if independence victory is your goal. So any people you don't have as relevant specialists should be making weapons/horses or arming up, or possibly making food do drive pop growth.

    All that aside, making excel sheets or even using a notebook (I prefer notebook) to keep track of what city needs what experts, and good production/needs, may help
     
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  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    @Joij21

    You may not believe it, but in end game I have easily 30+ cities (my record was around 60).
    And I never felt that "micro-managing them" became unbearable - it is core gameplay that makes it challenging.

    I often use an Excel Planning Sheet for which Experts I want to buy or educate.
    (I also use it for e.g. planning my Buildings, Trade Routes, ... and other stuff.)

    So when I have a Ship arriving in Europe or a Colonist being born, I simply check my list and "voila problem solved".
    Every now and then I loop throug all of my Cities, check them and update my Excel Planning Sheet - and actually that can indeed be fun.

    This is more or less part of the core gameplay of a "Colonial Economy Sim", which CivCol / WTP to a huge degree simply is.
    If you apply better methods to manage all that, it is not a problem, but if you really need to check every City every turn well of course it gets unbearable.

    Summary:
    Most likely the problem is that you try to keep all of that info in your brain, instead of writing it down just a single time.
    Use Excel Planning Sheets from mid-game to late-game and it should become easy and enjoyable again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  4. Raubwuerger

    Raubwuerger Chieftain

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    @raystuttgart

    For the buildings and professions, I do it exactly the same way, but in printed form. However, I reach my limits with the commodities (coffee, cigars,...), then the whole thing becomes annoying.

    I don't really get along with the transport routes. Either because they do not work properly or I am too stupid ... :crazyeye:

    I have always helped me by putting a few wagon trains in each city, or large coastal boats, and then cover the need from them. A nasty affair ...

    Therefore, I would welcome the completion of @FlaviusBelisarius mods "Improvement of Automated Trade Route System".

    Maybe I can help @FlaviusBelisarius with the implementation?!
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    I would waste too much paper and since I am Swabian (a German "Tribe" known for not wasting anything) I am too stingy for that. :)

    I can kind of understand that, but even for that, there are ways to manage it by e.g. naming transports according to their "transport routes".

    It needs improvements and simply does not yet work correctly, which is the reason why we are working on it again.

    Simply go ahead and ask him if he likes to get help and how you could coordinate the work. :thumbsup:
    (It is his work thus it is also his decision if he likes to get help or not.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  6. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    @Joij21

    I have ideas to make "mid game" / "late game" more interesting.
    (e.g. having a midgame crisis, campaign oriented gameplay, ...)

    But it is always about availability and motivation.
    We can not implement all ideas at the same time.

    But yes, this mod is "complex" and you need to manage a lot of different features.
    (Trade, Domestic Market, Production, Health, Happiness, Liberty Bells, Crosses, Exploration, Conquest, ...)

    But for me, it is also that "complexity" that makes the game fun and challenging.
    There are simply so many different "options" and "choices" to keep in balance.

    ----

    It is absolutely possible to not play wide and instead play tall.
    It is absolutely possible to not get income from Trade but e.g. from Exploration or conquering Natives or ...

    Or the most simple option:

    Play on smaller Maps with faster GameSpeed.
    (A game will be much shorter and thus also get less tedious.)

    ----

    Sometimes I feel like players often behave like this:

    1. There is this great party going on all night and they have a lot of fun partying with girls and drinking alcohol.
    2. The at 5 o'clock in the morning they complain and say: "My headache is unbearable. It is just too much."
    3. Then they go to the dance club owners that organized the party and say "You owe me a magic pill to relieve my headache !"

    Tip:
    All of the good stuff can get a bit too much if you overexagerate. ;)
    Nothing forces you to party that hard so you have to heavily regret it next day.
    We may try to cure or prevent some of the headaches, but it needs time to develop those magic "headache pills".

    ----

    Summary:

    Experiment
    with different play styles or game settings if your current game gets tedious.
    Nobody forces you to play every single game the same way or with the same settings.

    Comment:

    When you enter the dance club WTP you should really expect that it will get an exhausting night if you stay late.
    Otherwise please have some patience so we have a bit of time to continue working on magic "headache pills".

    :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  7. modmod

    modmod Warlord

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    Some basic management can be imported from AI which is is always fine to manage many process in the same time.
    Games often use a "governor" feature for micromanagement especially in sci-fi for planets/ colonies.

    And then players can concentrate to strategic decisions where humans usually better than AI.
    In that way late game difficulty (overwhelmed with tasks) can be reduced a bit.

    Well I solve this by targeting industrial victory which usually occur just before 1700.
     
  8. FlaviusBelisarius

    FlaviusBelisarius Chieftain

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    Present full transport automation has several critical issues that will simply make the system collapse when trying to scale up. Semi-manual route automation on the other hand is super effortful to set up in full (between all cities). So yes, they will not work. This is my motivation for changing things.
    • Full auto with city limits -> local trade is effortless and without the present issues.
    • More controls to avoid insignificant transport actions (5 sugar to the other side of the map since there is just not now better things to do).
    • Route automation to handle hub-hub transportation. The present one is ok for now but lacks power. Only having to set up hub-hub trade is much more bearable.
    • Auto governor setup for domestic goods. Thousands of clicks saved.
    How to help? I will need playtesters when I think the work is ready. At the moment it would be kind of pointless still since I know there are big issues waiting to be fixed. Feel free to look at my fork / branch nevertheless.
    https://github.com/MagisterBelisarius/Mod/tree/transport_automation
     
  9. Joij21

    Joij21 Emperor

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    I'm curious is this enough for the late game?

    I have 400,000 gold stockpiled in my treasury, 31 line infantry, 2 continental guards, 2 hessians, 2 mortars, 4 royal artillery, 6 heavy artillery, 27 colonial militia, 7 settler militia, 5 rangers, 6 native mercenaries, 8 dragoons, 7 heavy cavalry, 7 mounted conquistadors, 12 conquistadors, 1 man o war, 1 ship of the line, 1 frigate, 5 pirate frigates, 6 smugglers, 4 west indiamen, 6 galleons, and 1 caravel.
     
  10. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    Hard to say. You have a lot of gold stocked up but how is your stockpile and production of tools, cannons, horses, muskets and swords? You'll need those to make more lots more units. When the Kings REF comes they REALLY REALLY hurt with their bonuses. Also your troops have been gaining XP for bonuses right? If not, the REF will wipe the floor with them.
     
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  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    As @PPanda0421 pointed out correctly it is not just about quantity but also about quality of your troops. (i.e. Promotions)

    Also the placement of your "Bastion Cities" (that slow down REF) and the placement of your
    "Supply Cities" (that continue producing Equipment for Troosp) is absolutely crucial.

    You will lose or withdraw wounded troops from lots of fights, so you must be able to fight a "war of attrition".
    Do not expect the War of Independence to be like a war against other AIs. The REF is much stronger than your forces.

    If you do not adapt your strategy for a "war of attrition" and instead fight "heads on" the REF will wipe the floor with your troops.

    ... --> Fight --> Withdraw --> Heal --> Fight --> Withdraw --> Heal --> ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  12. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Prince

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    you need to see the number of REF troops. and you will understand whether you have a lot of troops or not)
     
  13. CptBadger

    CptBadger Warlord

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    Like others have said, there's a lot of variables, especially REF strength. Id be inclined to say if you have war-materials stockpiled, against a numerically smaller REF, and have your units trained up with promotions, maybe.

    My personal suggestion is similar to Ray's. You need production/infrastructure.
    By the time of war I've reset most cities to produce a military unit per turn, or as close as possible. Means raising horses, tons of food for pop growth, and weapons production maxed out. Very unlikely you'll have enough food for a pop/turn, so if you're gearing up for independence, here's an idea. Spend that gold.

    Get expert miners/smiths/ranchers(if focusing on cavalry/farmers. Focus on those building upgrades. Any unnecessary experts can have skill cleared (don't do this until your are sure you can't employ that profession) and be on standby for armaments as soon as produced.

    Really, once war starts the money is much less useful, IMO. Id keep a fund of probably 50k, pour the rest into infrastructure and then bodies.

    Note, this is just my opinion, there are others here that likely have different strategies and probably know the game better than I.
     
  14. Joij21

    Joij21 Emperor

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    I only have 1 bastion city (which just so happens to be the first city I settled), my tool production is around 200 a turn, 200 hundred a turn in blades if I switch my toolsmiths to just produce that, and 200 cannons a turn. Most of this production is centralized in my first city by the way.

    As far as promotions go I've killed 5 tribes and recently annexed a bunch of Dutch territory over a random event that had them steal a bunch of my beer where they declared war on me.

    I only have 16% total indepedence anyways. Also many of the Dutch cities I conquered we're a horrible mess when I got them. The AI is too dumb to know how to properly develop cities, hence the logistical nightmare I'm now in.
     

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