The Law of the Sea, killing units without consequences?

Are you on board with the "Law of the Sea" proposal?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • No

    Votes: 11 47.8%
  • Maybe...if...

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Sea of what?

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • You mean desert raiders? The Ark of the Covenant can be stolen?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Can we store plutonium in a caravel or it would catch fire?

    Votes: 2 8.7%

  • Total voters
    23
I disagree. First, unique, defining features of a civ given to everyone invalidates the civ in question very quickly. Very few nations in history considered piracy as something to be supported, or even tolerated. Piracy was also only a significant issue in several specific historical and geographical epochs. And, if a nation was caught engaging in piracy, it WOULD cause a massive international, worse than just a sneak attack under their own flag - but you portray a situation where such a discovery would never happen, and if it did, would be guaranteed no consequences. That is VERY wonky, indeed.
A case can be made for a 'fleshed out' Piracy mechanic, but not, IMHO, for a 'Universal Piracy Path' for all Civs and Leaders without, as posted above, some potential severe Diplomatic/military penalties.

First, although piracy historically was limited in time and place, there were significant piratical influences at widely separate geographical areas and in all of the game's Ages.

In Antiquity Age, throughout the Greek world pirate coasts were to be avoided, because piracy was virtually omnipresent and the piratical factions were so well-organized that ransoming prisoners from them was a regular business accepted as 'common practice' among the civilized nations of the area - until the Roman Empire took control of all the coasts and used that power to crush he pirate factions (which, in game terms, would be IPs unless they give us Illyria as an Antiquity Civ, which would be a real stretch)

In Exploration Age, Southeast Asia and the China-Korea-China triangle of coasts were swarming with piracy, and some states in Southeast Asia could make a better claim to being 'Pirate Kingdoms' than anybody in the Caribbean - they were larger and more powerful and lasted far longer than the Baconneers did in any form. Piratical actions were also, again, common throughout the Mediterranean but as Official Actions by Islamic and Christian states against each other. This is the one time and place that Piracy might be acceptable as a Civ Choice because it was such a universally acceptable practice between States on both sides of the religious line, but it would require a relatively narrow set of circumstances to make it work.

Modern Age of course, has the pirates of the mid-16th to late 18th century who acted not only in the Caribbean, but everywhere in the world that shipping went - the greatest pirate haul in history was in the Indian Ocean, where Henry Every (Avery) got away with the Mughul Emperor's treasure ship taking rich Mughuls to Mecca for pilgrimage - think Mansa Musa on the water loaded to the deck with gold, gems, and luxury goods by the ton. But after the 18th century, piracy becomes a strictly IP action by private groups from areas with weak or non-existant governments - government action on the sea becomes strictly a matter for regular warships and their crews (including especially submarines) rather than private individuals and crews, and pirates caught anywhere can expect short shrift from everyone - not the multi-national warship collections doing anti-piracy patrols off Somaliland when [irates became a problem there.

So, there are only specific times and places where piracy is appropriate as a Civ Choice, but piracy as an IP choice is much, much more common. Also note that the most common piratical action for most of history was not raiding ships but raiding the coasts: attacking small towns, villages, right up to major cities if you could gather enough ships, because, after all, towns were where the loot was already gathered for you if you could get to it.

I suggest then, based on historical examples, the following might be a basis for Piracy in the game:

1. Only certain specified Civs can perform piratical actions without going to war.

2. IPs as Pirate Factions should be much more common in all Ages.

3. Anybody who fights pirates will get major bonuses in diplomatic points from every other Civ or IP that is not Piratical. This could be something as simple and general as destroy a pirate vessel, get X Influence Points. Destroy Pirate Faction (IP, Civ) and get some positive bonus without spending any Influence at all for it.

4. All pirate vessels should be able to raid coastal tiles - and a special Viking Rule might be that they can raid up to X tiles from the coast since they were notorious for landing, stealing horses and riding well inland to raid before riding back to the coast before they could be intercepted.
 
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There's no 'Caravel' as a unit that use this name in Civ7. HOWEVER there are units that uses two different caravel models in this game
- Corsairs and Privateers use Caravela Latina (or this can also be Xebec, which were usually depicted as all latin rigged)
- sea traders (Also Caravela Latina)
- Treasure Fleet (Caravela Redonda, mostly square sails with latin rigged mizzenmast).

As a unit name, the term 'Carrack' replaced caravel
and interesting enough Civ6 Caravel shares the shapes of Carracks shown in Civ7.
 
Who is to decide if my vessel is pirate or not prior to insurances?
The City flag?

Alaric the Vandal King sacked 2Tons pf Silver and Gold from Rome, hauled onto some ships, and took it to Carthage.
One ship, the heaviest one, sank somewhere along the route and it has never been found...

As far as I know, only after Constantine moved the Empire to Constantinople, the Christian cross started to appear onto the vessels flags, but in
Rome, it was still Paganism... every city had their own deities and protectors.
The Trajan Column had erased the Emperor head with that of Constantine, and all soldiers, had different symbols on their shields.
Later historians depict him with the Christian Cross on all its troops... the Column say otherwise...
As to say... the "Byzantine" is a later historian invention... they were Roman "citizens"...
The Empire was the Emperor himself... if the Emperor moved along the Empire and took control of all its parts,
then it was united. As soon as it isolated himself away from the Pagan 99% of the rest of the "empire"....
it was over.. then came the Barbaric hordes, that means the nomad people from the North, but not
uncivilized terrorist...

The Christians and later Islamic were not barbarians. They were terrorists. Destroying and sacking for ideology.
It was not at all peacefully accepted.
A formal peace peace between Carthage and Rome was signed in the 1900!!!

When the Vandals felt, and the Arabs risen again from the ashes, the world spoke greek mainly.
It was never peaceful raiding.
No one wanted to build near the coasts.
In inheriting laws in South Italy, the coastal lands were given to the women as those were of low value and high risk.
The man inherited the cultivable lands on the mountains...

The concept of borders and that boats cannot enter waters of other nations is absurd, this is one of those things
that got introduced in Civ IV for example... and if it was to me... it should be erased from the game...

Another law of the sea is that if you find an lonely vessel and board it, it is yours...
this was true untill Nation flags were first adopted late in the 1700, but changing a flag was
easy... and a pirated vessel left with no survivors to tell... surely the flag was the first to go...

there's 6-7000 years of history before that there has been a law of the Sea,
which had nothing to do with what came later.
 
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This rambling, skewed, heavily biased, and contradictory and inaccurate in places (including calling Christians and Muslins, in general, as, "terrorists,"), as well as stating the blatant fallacy that pirated vessels never left survivors, does not back up your two conclusionary sentences, at all, really. This mechanic you're hung up on, to the absolute and broad-level degree you want, is, unfortunately, insufficiently backed up.
 
It's amazing, the tricks the mind plays on you sometimes. You run into a wall of text and all of a sudden, it's like no words have been written at all.
 
Wow, Maps of the world just posted this image on X:
sea_flags.jpeg


Amazingly I can't find the flag of the Barbados, Indonesia, Sicily nor Sardinia, Genoa or Venice (but there's two identical version for Italy...)
and Neither a Pirate Flag of any kind...
And the amazing flag of Tibet? Country notorious for its beautiful beaches... lol...
 
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This rambling, skewed, heavily biased, and contradictory and inaccurate in places (including calling Christians and Muslins, in general, as, "terrorists,"), as well as stating the blatant fallacy that pirated vessels never left survivors, does not back up your two conclusionary sentences, at all, really. This mechanic you're hung up on, to the absolute and broad-level degree you want, is, unfortunately, insufficiently backed up.
yes yes, it is widely backed up by Italian Historians with millions of followers...
His name is Alessandro Barbero, you can check its full lecture about the End of the Roman Empire with Auto-translation.
This is one long version... He teaches History in Italian University and has National TV History programs...
All I've said, althought garbled... it's coming directly from him.
If you don't have time and energy to check OK, but believe me when I say I didn't invent any of it...

 
yes yes, it is widely backed up by Italian Historians with millions of followers...
His name is Alessandro Barbero, you can check its full lecture about the End of the Roman Empire with Auto-translation.
This is one long version... He teaches History in Italian University and has National TV History programs...
All I've said, althought garbled... it's coming directly from him.
If you don't have time and energy to check OK, but believe me when I say I didn't invent any of it...

Regardless of what a historian with many YouTube supporters (a dubious way of measuring veracity) says, the notion of absolute and broad-based piracy, to the degrees you advocate, but would be specific phenomena in specific time periods and places, is not all ships, of all nations, who just happen to be exploiting some nonexistent, universal, "law of the sea," to avoid any chance of identification and diplomatic consequences, and is not, and has not, been the case. Also, there have been lots of survivors of pirated vessels, and Christians and Muslims are not all terrorists.
 
Wow, Maps of the world just posted this image on X:
View attachment 757102

Amazingly I can't find the flag of the Barbados, Indonesia, Sicily nor Sardinia, Genoa or Venice (but there's two identical version for Italy...)
and Neither a Pirate Flag of any kind...
And the amazing flag of Tibet? Country notorious for its beautiful beaches... lol...
At the time of the obvious publication of this document, Italy is already a unified nation, so Sicily, Sardinia, Genoa, and Venice would not be sovereign nations. The Pirate Republic ceased to exist several decades before the American Revolution. Indonesia would have been the Dutch East Indies, which used the Netherlands flag. Let's be honest, here. There's no possible way every erstwhile, historical national flag is fitting on one document this size - though there are notable number. Notice the Qing Imperial Dragon flag is not there - only the Five-Colour and Kuomintang Chinese Republic flags (as again, it predates the PRC, like it does Indonesia). It is definitely neither complete, nor up to date, by any measure.
 
Wow, Maps of the world just posted this image on X:
View attachment 757102

Amazingly I can't find the flag of the Barbados, Indonesia, Sicily nor Sardinia, Genoa or Venice (but there's two identical version for Italy...)
and Neither a Pirate Flag of any kind...
And the amazing flag of Tibet? Country notorious for its beautiful beaches... lol...
Also, the two Italian flags are obviously the Pre-Fascist Kingdom and Fascist Italy. Also notice, India is the British Raj flag, with no modern Indian, Pakistani, or Bangladeshi flag, Japan has a civilian and war flag, Germany has Imperial civil and war flags and Weimar flags, the Philippines is the flag under the Jones Law U.S. Commonwealth, Turkey has the flipped star-and-crescent, Egypt has the Khedivate and Royal flags, Afghanistan has the Durrani flag, the altered Israeli flag is the one used by the New Yishuv in the Mandatory Palestine before 1948, and Tibet was de facto independent between 1912 and 1959 (I don't get the, "beaches," gag). This chart was obviously published during, or right at the end of, WW2.
 
It does make sense, somewhat, that a scout should only be able to provide you with map information should it return to your territory after making a trip to the hinterland, or if a unit dies, you need to send a unit to that area to collect any "survivor" and bring it back. Based on how wonky archaic maps are, possibly the further away your scout goes, the less accurate your outline should be. Just a thought to add more intrigue to the 1st of the 4 X-es.
 
It does make sense, somewhat, that a scout should only be able to provide you with map information should it return to your territory after making a trip to the hinterland, or if a unit dies, you need to send a unit to that area to collect any "survivor" and bring it back. Based on how wonky archaic maps are, possibly the further away your scout goes, the less accurate your outline should be. Just a thought to add more intrigue to the 1st of the 4 X-es.
Frankly, it would make it tedious and aggravating, in my opinion.
 
Wow, Maps of the world just posted this image on X:
View attachment 757102

Amazingly I can't find the flag of the Barbados, Indonesia, Sicily nor Sardinia, Genoa or Venice (but there's two identical version for Italy...)
and Neither a Pirate Flag of any kind...
And the amazing flag of Tibet? Country notorious for its beautiful beaches... lol...
In fact, judging by the lack of a Third Reich flag, or any of the Axis proxy nations, I might even be as bold as to say it was made in the early- to mid-1930's.
 
In fact, judging by the lack of a Third Reich flag, or any of the Axis proxy nations, I might even be as bold as to say it was made in the early- to mid-1930's.
The German flag it shows is that of the Weimar Republic and the modern German Federal Republic, which would only be accurate from 1919 to 1933 or after 1949.

Or, of course, in some individual German states dating back to 1778 . . .
 
The German flag it shows is that of the Weimar Republic and the modern German Federal Republic, which would only be accurate from 1919 to 1933 or after 1949.

Or, of course, in some individual German states dating back to 1778 . . .
That's what led me to suspect the probable date of the document. But, early- to mid-1930's is more likely, as, if it was 1949, there should be a PRC, Indonesia, Socialist Yugoslavia, North and South Korea, East Germany, and Pre-Geneve Accords Cambodia, Laos, and, "State," of Vietnam, Post-Independence Philippines, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, and Burma as well, and there would be a flag of Saudi Arabia instead of, or in addition to, the flag of the Hedjaz, plus Poland and Hungary should not have the Coat of Arms (though likely with a Pre-War Historical versions beside them), and Italy would have a third flag, also without a Coat of Arms for the 1947 Republic, and a Romanian flag with a Communist Emblem defacing the centre, and a Bulgarian flag in lighter colours with a Communist Emblem in the upper hoist, corner (though likely with a Pre-War Historical versions beside them), which there is none of the above - so, yes, like, Early- to Mid-1930's. (I love having a good vexillological (why does the auto-speller say it's spelt incorrectly when that's how they spell it on Flags of the World, Wikipedia, and the World Vexillology Society?) rant :king: ).
 
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I threw in the post 1949 because i was applicable to the German flag, not because I thought it was a likely date for the display.

Pre WWII is almost certain for a date, if for no other reason than that the entire top third of the display appears to be various "Flags of the British Empire" and flags of "colonies and dependancies". After 1945 the British Empire was on its last legs, and no longer worth being the center of any proposed international vexillious display. The entire layout of the display screams No Later Than The Raj to me: especially the colonial' flags by the 1950s would be as much imperially nostalgic as accurate . . .
 
Wow, Maps of the world just posted this image on X:
View attachment 757102

Amazingly I can't find the flag of the Barbados, Indonesia, Sicily nor Sardinia, Genoa or Venice (but there's two identical version for Italy...)
and Neither a Pirate Flag of any kind...
And the amazing flag of Tibet? Country notorious for its beautiful beaches... lol...
And, BTW, while not having a separate flag slot, Barbados has one of those British Colonial badges listed that you're assumed to just deface a Blue or Red Ensign with.
 
I thought the "law of the sea" was the old tradition of drawing lots and eating the loser if folks were shipwrecked without food. I didn't remember that at all in civ.

Edit: Never mind, that's apparently the "custom of the sea"
😆 you went straight to cannibalism? South Park episode ha ha
 
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