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The Liberalism Slingshot

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game II: Citizens' started by dutchfire, Jul 25, 2007.

  1. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    We are currently a couple of turns (+/- 4) away from completing Liberalism if we want to. Currently, the best techs available to get as a bonus tech are Astronomy, Replaceable Parts and Nationalism. However I was thinking that it might be a better idea to research nationalism and constitution first, and only then research liberalism. We can then take Democracy, a very expensive tech, as our free tech. I think it isn't to difficult to do this, as it would take us about 17 turns to research Nationalism, Constitution and Liberalism. As Montezuma and Tokugawa still need Paper AND Education (and Monty needs Philosophy too) before they can even start on Liberalism, I think it's safe to delay Liberalism a bit to profit more from it's free tech. When we have Democracy and Liberalism, we can also make one big civic change to some of the newer civics like free religion and emancipation.
     
  2. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

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    Sounds like a plan! :goodjob:
     
  3. Hyronymus

    Hyronymus Troop leader

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    That's some wicked thinking, dutchfire. I'm much attracted to your suggestion but how certain are we that there isn't a civilization out there that's better than the ones we just met? Besides, Astronomy is expensive too.
     
  4. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    Well there is one more unknown civ in the world. That civ has built the Sistine Chapel, the Colossus, the Christian Shrine, the Parthenon and Stonehenge. We don't know for sure how advanced they are, but I guess that they're not too far ahead of Monty and Toku. Also, when we meet them, and it looks like they'll be able to beat us to liberalism, we can change techs to liberalism immediately and research it in 3 turns (running a considerable deficit though) and just pick another tech for free.
     
  5. ordinaryguy

    ordinaryguy Back to Civ!

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    Don't underestimate that civ. If it's Washington or Mansa Musa, we're going to have a competitor.
     
  6. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    The unknown civ has biggest GNP.
     
  7. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    GNP doesn't include commerce multipliers like libraries, universities, markets, grocers and banks (which we have many) and I believe it doesn't really count specialists either so it's often pretty flawed.

    However, I repeat that we can always pick up Liberalism in 3 turns in case of emergency.
     
  8. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I forgot to check the cities that Tokugawa could trade. That might reveal the mystery opponent. Until we have contact we won't know if we're completely safe or a turn away from losing the slingshot, because we still won't know exactly what techs they have.

    There are 3 factors to use when choosing the slingshot tech: cost, value to us, value as trade goods. We've heard that Democracy is expensive, but can you lay out its value to us and value in trade?
     
  9. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    Value to us: It gives us the ability to build the Statue of Liberty, which gives a free specialist in every city on the continent. That's of course very powerful.
    It also enables two civics, Universal Suffrage and Emancipation. Universal Suffrage is nice, but I rate it as about as good as Representation (which it replaces), so we'd have to look carefully at which of these would be best.
    Emancipation replaces Serfdom, and gives 100% cottage growth. Normally it takes a cottage 10 turns to become a hamlet, then another 20 to become a hamlet, another 30 to become a village and another 40 to become a town. That's a total of 100 turns. With Emancipation, this will only take 50 turns. This greatly improves the development of our newer cities, that are just getting their cottages up and running. Having towns instead of villages is really a great improvement. Emancipation also gives unhappiness to all other civs' cities, making it harder for them to catch up.
     
  10. mike6426

    mike6426 Singularitarian

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    I approve of this plan as I was planning something similar, but I believe that we should take this decrease in the research time and use it to the best of our abilities. This is the main reason I researched Philosophy, so that we could have liberalism for the easy teching

    I did a bit of research, and from it I found that if we wanted to get an expensive tech without a lot of research (for liberalism teching), we could go for chemistry (standard cost 2000, democracy costs 2200) (via gunpowder)
     
  11. fed1943

    fed1943 Emperor

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    IMO nobody can say this plan is wrong, but also nobody can say it's safe.

    We have now the upper hand and no need to take risks.

    Go to Liberalism now and choose the most expensive as free tech.

    Best regards,
     
  12. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    Well, chemistry isn't that usefull, is it? We don't really need grenadiers (though they would be nice).
     
  13. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Don't forget what next techs are unlocked by our choice.
     
  14. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    We can research Astro (2860 in 8 turns) and then get Scientific (3432), if we want a big tech. Or replaceble parts (2574 in 7 turns) and get rifling (3432).


    btw Toku has only japanese towns
     
  15. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    We should go for astro, simply in order to expand in the oceans and place cities on key islands if we should find them. This is essential, not research in itself alone.
     
  16. Hyronymus

    Hyronymus Troop leader

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    If we go for tis Liberalism Slingshot then I would like the proposal to include that whenever we discover that the one civilization left in the world has a path to Liberalism too we switch back to Liberalism and research it in 3 turns at any costs.
     
  17. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I think we should do it NOW anyways, as we badly need Astronomy.
     
  18. ordinaryguy

    ordinaryguy Back to Civ!

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    I can't really comment as I haven't taken a detailed look at the save. But I feel that we can put off Liberalism for a while if there is evidence that we can research it in 3+ turns if needed (without killing our economy i.e. losing 200gpt)
     
  19. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

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    Might it be worth it to research liberalism up to 1 turn away and then research the other stuff?
     
  20. ordinaryguy

    ordinaryguy Back to Civ!

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    You could, but beakers will start to be lost after 10 turns of not researching it.

    But its also a possibility.
     

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