The Macedonian Naming Dispute

[Tee Kay]

Given the amount of intermarrying, population transfers, and living in the same area for several hundred years, I would say that trying to figure out if someone is 'ethnicaly Macedonian' is an excercise is futility.

I'd say there's a fair number of "Macedonians" who are Turkish and Muslim...

 

[christos200]

The real macedonians are greeks. Also in ancient times macedonia wasnt the only greek kingdom. There were and the kingdom of Epirus and Thessaly so one of the main reasons the fyromians say ancient macedonia isnt greek, just collapsed.

 

[Perfection]

This all reeks of petty ethnocentrism and undeserved entitlement. Why can't you Balkans all just get along?

 

[christos200]

This all reeks of petty ethnocentrism and undeserved entitlement. Why can't you Balkans all just get along?

Because fyromians steal greek and bulgarian and serbian history.

 

[Winner]

This all reeks of petty ethnocentrism and undeserved entitlement. Why can't you Balkans all just get along?

Because focusing on things like economic growth, peaceful solutions of disputes, rule of law, unbiased education, low government debt, etc. are just sooo boooring. Obsessing over centuries old injustices is much more fun!

 

[christos200]

The fyromians also steal serbian history. They say Stefan dusan, who was a medeival serbian king, was fyromian.

 

[Silurian]

2)

The speech of Alexander I, when he was admitted to the Olympic games

“Men of Athens…
Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery….


If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians.


I am Alexander of Macedon.”

My highlight

So what does this prove but that the current Greece popluation is German/Danish

From wiki

The Greek Royal Family was a branch of the House of Glücksburg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Royal_Family

 

[warpus]

Macedonia is part of greece and there they live almost 2,5 million greeks. Now one day some slavs decide to say that macedonia is fyromian and not greek, that the 2,5 million greeks there have nothing to do with macedonia and alexander the great is slav. would a greek ever accept that.

Let's say one day some Englishmen decide that New York is English and not American, that the 15 million Americans have nothing to do with New York and George Washington is English. Would an American ever accept that?

Clearly the Americans need to rename New York to something AMERICAN.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Just lump the entire Balkans into one big country called "Land of Crazy Nationalists". It can't be any worse then the current situation.

It was called Austria-Hungary.

 

[Silurian]

What amazes me is that the Greeks think that the inhabitants of ancient Macedonian were wiped from the face of the earth as the Slavs and others invaded but the invaders of Greece had a look around then left.

 

[Winner]

What amazes me is that the Greeks think that the inhabitants of ancient Macedonian were wiped from the face of the earth as the Slavs and others invaded but the invaders of Greece had a look around then left.

What's more concerning is the hidden implication that Slavs are untermenschen whose blood can't possibly be circulating in the veins of the pure Greek nation

 

[Leoreth]

It was called Austria-Hungary.

Weren't larger parts of the Balkans formerly part of the Ottoman Empire?

What amazes me is that the Greeks think that the inhabitants of ancient Macedonian were wiped from the face of the earth as the Slavs and others invaded but the invaders of Greece had a look around then left.

This.

 

[amadeus]

Given Greece's recent fiscal woes, I don't think they ought to have much to be nationalistic about. As for a name for Greece, how about Griechenland GmbH?

 

[Dachs]

Area of historical Macedonia according to Wiki:

That's actually not very true. Much of the modern republic is centered in what was Paionia, which was only intermittently under Makedonian control after Philippos II (and absolutely not under their control before his reign). Makedonia's heartland - the territory it controlled before their 'period of Great Power' began - was centered on the Vardar valley near the coast, and the territory just north of the Chalkidiki. If one's including Paionia - the modern (FY)RoM - in "historical" Makedonia, one might as well add Thessalia¹ and the rest of Pelagonia to the map as well. Which, obviously, nobody is. The inclusion of the territory of Dardania - the chunk of Bulgaria in blue - is dubious for the same reasons.

Basically, whoever made that map either got his history from vanilla Rome: Total War or is a (FY)RoMian nationalist who wants to lend extra (ridiculous) credence to the name.

Anyway, as to my opinion on the naming dispute, I think the name is stupid and has little to no basis in actual history, but I applaud the Bulgarians of Skopje for their impressive ability to troll the Greeks.

¹ = I know that the Thessalian koinon had a different constitutional structure than did the kingdom of Makedonia proper during much of the Hellenistic era, but the president of the koinon's council was still the hereditary position of the king of Makedonia, and such is probably not that distinct from the dubious power that a Makedonian king held over the tribes of Paionia anyway, even during times of Makedonian ascendancy e.g. under Alexander. They're roughly equivalent positions.

 

[christos200]

My highlight

So what does this prove but that the current Greece popluation is German/Danish

From wiki



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Royal_Family

because the english, french and russians maked us to have a german king instead of democracy, it doesnt mean that we greeks are germans.

 

[christos200]

That's actually not very true. Much of the modern republic is centered in what was Paionia, which was only intermittently under Makedonian control after Philippos II (and absolutely not under their control before his reign). Makedonia's heartland - the territory it controlled before their 'period of Great Power' began - was centered on the Vardar valley near the coast, and the territory just north of the Chalkidiki. If one's including Paionia - the modern (FY)RoM - in "historical" Makedonia, one might as well add Thessalia¹ and the rest of Pelagonia to the map as well. Which, obviously, nobody is. The inclusion of the territory of Dardania - the chunk of Bulgaria in blue - is dubious for the same reasons.

Basically, whoever made that map either got his history from vanilla Rome: Total War or is a (FY)RoMian nationalist who wants to lend extra (ridiculous) credence to the name.

Anyway, as to my opinion on the naming dispute, I think the name is stupid and has little to no basis in actual history, but I applaud the Bulgarians of Skopje for their impressive ability to troll the Greeks.

¹ = I know that the Thessalian koinon had a different constitutional structure than did the kingdom of Makedonia proper during much of the Hellenistic era, but the president of the koinon's council was still the hereditary position of the king of Makedonia, and such is probably not that distinct from the dubious power that a Makedonian king held over the tribes of Paionia anyway, even during times of Makedonian ascendancy e.g. under Alexander. They're roughly equivalent positions.

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[Dachs]

because the english, french and russians maked us to have a german king instead of democracy, it doesnt mean that we greeks are germans.

Yeah, to be fair, the Greeks tried to have a republic and it didn't work out. Shame, because Kolokotronis was probably the coolest guy involved in that miserable little revolution.

 

[madviking]

The real macedonians are greeks.

This is dangerously close to No True Scotsman territory.

 

[christos200]

this is dangerously close to no true scotsman territory.

macedonia is greek, like it or not!!!!!

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[Dachs]

This is dangerously close to No True Scotsman territory.

What

no it isn't

it's just a conflicting definition, it's not begging the question

now, admittedly, said definition is a silly nationalistic one