The Macedonian Naming Dispute

[madviking]

What

no it isn't

it's just a conflicting definition, it's not begging the question

Isn't he making a distinction between a Makedonian and a "true" Makedonian?

 

[christos200]

Isn't he making a distinction between a Makedonian and a "true" Makedonian?

Oh, god.

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[madviking]

I don't really get what your beef is. Are Greeks just jealous of the size of Makedonia's name? Do they want to hog all the Makedonianess? What is the difference if, for example, I named my house Makedonia? Are you gonna get into a beef with me for naming it after something that may-or-may-not be entirely in your country? If so, then you're just being another crazy nationalist. If not, then provide a rational reason why what I'm gonna start calling The Country Formerly Known As The Former Yugoslav Republic Of Makedonia can't be called Makedonia?

 

[Dachs]

Isn't he making a distinction between a Makedonian and a "true" Makedonian?

If I say that this rock is, in fact, a spoon, and you argue with me, saying that it's not a real spoon, does that mean you're committing a logical fallacy? Of course not.

You can argue that this whole thing is a giant wad of nationalistic bull, or you - specifically, you, madviking the Russian - can be a panslavist nutjob on a par with the pseudobyzantine Greek nationalist over here, christos, without having to bring alleged logical fallacies into it. If somebody's facts are wrong, they're wrong.

I mean, of course he's a crazy nationalist, but it's not like this is totally meaningless stuff. Since Greece is such a craphole, pretty much all they have left is their past and their history, and the (FY)RoM is taking a giant dump on it, so of course he's going to be cheesed off.

 

[Silurian]

because the english, french and russians maked us to have a german king instead of democracy, it doesnt mean that we greeks are germans.

So your quote with ny highlight

“Men of Athens…
Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery….


If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians.


I am Alexander of Macedon.”

So Alexander had Greek ancestors, which does not make the ancient Macedonians Greek. The Greek royal family being Danish/German does not make the present Greek population German.

 

[christos200]

Because macedonia is a greek name. They claim that the 2,5 million greek people who live in macedonia arent macedonians. The steal our history and think that the ancient macedonian kingdom wasnt greek. They claim alexander the great wasnt greek. Their nationalist want to take over macedonia. Not only that but in their sites they say lies that we are turks and that the heroes of the greek revolution of 1821 are albanians. They also say that the byzantine empire wasnt greek. They steal our history and hate everything that is greek.

 

[aronnax]

macedonia is greek, like it or not!!!!!

Who really cares??? They can be freaking Japanese and if they wanted to call themselves Macedonians let them! I have a friend whose parents gave him a Spanish name and he is Chinese!

Let them call themselves whatever they want, regardless or not they actually live in Macedonia or they are actually Macedonians, whatever those two terms means.

 

[madviking]

If I say that this rock is, in fact, a spoon, and you argue with me, saying that it's not a real spoon, does that mean you're committing a logical fallacy? Of course not.

To be fair, I said he was close to committing a fallacy.

You can argue that this whole thing is a giant wad of nationalistic bull, or you - specifically, you, madviking the Russian - can be a panslavist nutjob on a par with the pseudobyzantine Greek nationalist over here, christos, without having to bring alleged logical fallacies into it. If somebody's facts are wrong, they're wrong.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a glut of Slavophilic Russian nationalist(s) on this board.

If anything, I should be a East Prussian nationalist; KÖNIGSBERG SHALL RISE FROM THE ASHES OF KALININGRAD!

 

[Dachs]

By the way, I'm reasonably certain that the argument over the language of the general mass of classical Makedonians is going to get nowhere. The very few instances of 'demotic' Makedonian words are impossible to date and etymologically hard to place: was it a different language or were these words basically twisted-around Greek ones? It seems clear that they spoke, at least early on (meaning, like, before the fourth century BC), at least a dialect of Greek, and potentially a different language, but pretty much everything after that is inconclusive.

There are pretty good reasons for arguing that most Maks, at least in the army and bureaucracy, spoke Greek natively, and certainly by the second century BC it's hard, if not impossible, to make out any Makedonian language apart from Koine. It's literally impossible to talk about a Hellenistic era without Makedonians at least speaking a dialect of Greek, and potentially full-on Koine.

At any rate, that particular argument is unresolved. It's kind of pointless, anyway. If the ancient Maks weren't speaking a Greek dialect at the very beginning, they were definitely not speaking a Slavic language, which is what the modern (FY)RoM does.

Frankly, I blame this all on the Serbs, who prevented the Bulgarians from conquering the territory of the current (FY)RoM in 1912-3 and making this whole thing irrelevant. Everybody knows that the modern Macedonians are basically just Bulgarians with an identity crisis anyway.

 

[Winner]

Given Greece's recent fiscal woes, I don't think they ought to have much to be nationalistic about. As for a name for Greece, how about Griechenland GmbH?

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[Dachs]

If anything, I should be a East Prussian nationalist; KÖNIGSBERG SHALL RISE FROM THE ASHES OF KALININGRAD!

Why East Prussian instead of just, um, Prussian?

 

[christos200]

I mean, of course he's a crazy nationalist, but it's not like this is totally meaningless stuff. Since Greece is such a craphole, pretty much all they have left is their past and their history, and the (FY)RoM is taking a giant dump on it, so of course he's going to be cheesed off.

Today greece is a craphole. We also have idiots politicians that stole the peoples money created villas and even today with the economical cricis they keep stealing the public money and no one of the has been ever jailed since 1974.

 

[Leoreth]

macedonia is greek, like it or not!!!!!

Oh, now that you're using size 4 font and five exclamation marks, I see your point.

Because macedonia is a greek name. They claim that the 2,5 million greek people who live in macedonia arent macedonians. The steal our history and think that the ancient macedonian kingdom wasnt greek. They claim alexander the great wasnt greek. Their nationalist want to take over macedonia. Not only that but in their sites they say lies that we are turks and that the heroes of the greek revolution of 1821 are albanians.

Some of that is true. But that has nothing to do with how they call their country.

They also say that the byzantine empire wasnt greek.

What does that even matter? Modern Greece doesn't have much in common with the Byzantine Empire anyway.

 

[christos200]

What does that even matter? Modern Greece doesn't have much in common with the Byzantine Empire anyway.

Modern greece has more commons with the byzantine empire than ancient greece. From ancient greece we took our national identity. From byzantium we took our relligion, our tradition, our music and our traditional food.

 

[bhsup]

So then you're really saying that the ancient Macedonians were more truly 'greek' than you guys are? Maybe you should abdicate the name "Greek" in favor something else.

See, this is my whole thing about the old world and its silly obsession with blood ties for nation status. Get with the new world, my friend.

 

[Jan H]

I think the state of Georgia should change its name. It is clearly nowhere near the Republic of Georgia. Someone from Atlanta is clearly not Georgian, and have nothing to do with Georgia.

And Luxemburg should be renamed to "The part of the former Holy Roman duchy of Luxemburg that was never annexed by France, Prussia or Belgium and remained in personal union with the Netherlands until 1890".
The Belgian province of Luxemburg could then be "The part of the former Holy Roman duchy of Luxemburg that was mainly French speaking and that was ceded to Belgium in 1839 after the Duchy supported the Belgian revolution of 1830, except for Luxemburg city which was occupied by the Prussians"

 

[christos200]

And Luxemburg should be renamed to "The part of the former Holy Roman duchy of Luxemburg that was never annexed by France, Prussia or Belgium and remained in personal union with the Netherlands until 1890".
The Belgian province of Luxemburg could then be "The part of the former Holy Roman duchy of Luxemburg that was mainly French speaking and that was ceded to Belgium in 1839 after the Duchy supported the Belgian revolution of 1830, except for Luxemburg city which was occupied by the Prussians"

here i will repost why we greeks dont want fyrom to be named macedonia.

Because macedonia is a greek name. They claim that the 2,5 million greek people who live in macedonia arent macedonians. The steal our history and think that the ancient macedonian kingdom wasnt greek. They claim alexander the great wasnt greek. Their nationalist want to take over macedonia. Not only that but in their sites they say lies that we are turks and that the heroes of the greek revolution of 1821 are albanians. They also say that the byzantine empire wasnt greek. They steal our history and hate everything that is greek.

 

[Silurian]

By the way, I'm reasonably certain that the argument over the language of the general mass of classical Makedonians is going to get nowhere. The very few instances of 'demotic' Makedonian words are impossible to date and etymologically hard to place: was it a different language or were these words basically twisted-around Greek ones? It seems clear that they spoke, at least early on (meaning, like, before the fourth century BC), at least a dialect of Greek, and potentially a different language, but pretty much everything after that is inconclusive.

There are pretty good reasons for arguing that most Maks, at least in the army and bureaucracy, spoke Greek natively, and certainly by the second century BC it's hard, if not impossible, to make out any Makedonian language apart from Koine. It's literally impossible to talk about a Hellenistic era without Makedonians at least speaking a dialect of Greek, and potentially full-on Koine.

At any rate, that particular argument is unresolved. It's kind of pointless, anyway. If the ancient Maks weren't speaking a Greek dialect at the very beginning, they were definitely not speaking a Slavic language, which is what the modern (FY)RoM does.

Frankly, I blame this all on the Serbs, who prevented the Bulgarians from conquering the territory of the current (FY)RoM in 1912-3 and making this whole thing irrelevant. Everybody knows that the modern Macedonians are basically just Bulgarians with an identity crisis anyway.

The ancient Macedonians were not speaking the a Slavic language as the Slavs came after the Romans.

Many people do not speak the same language as their ancestors from 2400 years ago.

 

[christos200]

But the fyromians arent macedonians and macedonia language is a greek language.

The fyromians are slavs!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dachs]

The ancient Macedonians were not speaking the a Slavic language as the Slavs came after the Romans.

Many people do not speak the same language as their ancestors from 2400 years ago.

But the classical Makedonians weren't the ancestors of the modern inhabitants of the Artist Formerly Known as the Formerly Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in any meaningful sense.

Look, don't get me wrong, I think it's fine for the (FY)RoM to have the name it has, we just need to be clear that it's not because of some ostensible historical connection, but because they want to troll the Greeks. And since this is the kind of benign trolling that makes life so much fun (unlike the Turkish version of trolling Greeks, which usually involves setting massive fires and burning thousands alive or invading Cyprus), it's arguably something to be applauded.