The many questions-not-worth-their-own-thread question thread XIX

[hobbsyoyo]

It can't bite your arm off though

Well, I mean, if it can knaw through it's own paw to get out of a trap, I assume it could damage your arm pretty badly.

 

[Borachio]

IIRC those silver foxes were semi-domesticated* for the fur trade.

*As in bred in captivity and kept in small cages.

So, when your beloved pet dies - a nice fox fur stole to impress your friends!

 

[hobbsyoyo]

IIRC those silver foxes were semi-domesticated* for the fur trade.

*As in bred in captivity and kept in small cages.

So, when your beloved pet dies - a nice fox fur stole to impress your friends!

The breeding for use in the fur trade was done to get around Soviet restrictions on evolutionary science. At the time, the USSR had some political problems with Darwinian evolution and refused to acknowledge it.

The scientist who did all this wanted to work on theories of domestication that related to evolution. He needed a cover story to do it, what he came up with was:
Hey, how's about I try and domesticate some foxes so it's easier to harvest them for fur?

The authorities went along with it, and the murder of foxes that were aggressive in order to sell their fur served to financially prop up the experiment and got non- or less- domesticated foxes out of the gene pool.

After a few generations of this, the result were foxes with kit characteristics (floppy ears and such) that are largely dependent on humans. They still have aggressive, non-domesticated foxes as a control population and for culling. But from what I understand, at this point the core domesticated population are like dogs that climb. The institute has been trying to get export/import licenses from Russia, the US and elsewhere so they can sell of domesticated foxes as pets instead of culling 'mean' foxes to support themselves and further the research. I will be in line to get one when/if this happens.

National Geographic did an issue on them and they've been mentioned on sciency TV shows before and you can find them on youtube if interested.

Here's a video, and it even shows one of the red ones:
http://youtu.be/d1G2yZMUNUQ

Sorry, I can't get the youtube tag to work so I can embed it. Never done it before and it's not working.

 

[Borachio]

I remember this experiment now. And the "kit" characteristics were crucial. Which is, of course, exactly what dogs exhibit when they maintain their puppy playfulness into old age. Something not found in wild populations, as there's no evolutionary advantage to it.

Domestication is interesting, according to Diamond, in that very few species have been successfully fully domesticated. What are they? Chickens, geese, ducks, turkeys, sheep, cattle, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters, rats, camels, donkeys, horses, (but not zebras), and that's pretty much it.

And there's a few very borderline cases like elephants and birds of prey.

But most mammals don't seem to want to know. I can't think why. If you could domesticate a gorilla, think what a great road worker, or club bouncer, you'd have.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I remember this experiment now. And the "kit" characteristics were crucial. Which is, of course, exactly what dogs exhibit when they maintain their puppy playfulness into old age. Something not found in wild populations, as there's no evolutionary advantage to it.

Domestication is interesting, according to Diamond, in that very few species have been successfully fully domesticated. What are they? Chickens, geese, ducks, turkeys, sheep, cattle, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters, rats, camels, donkeys, horses, (but not zebras), and that's pretty much it.

And there's a few very borderline cases like elephants and birds of prey.

But most mammals don't seem to want to know. I can't think why.

The list of domesticated animals is bigger than you might think, and the semi-domesticated list is actually pretty large. Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals

But I agree with you, the ration of domesticated to wild animals is teeny tiny. I wonder if we haven't domesticated more species because we couldn't, or if we just didn't try.

 

[Farm Boy]

I remember this experiment now. And the "kit" characteristics were crucial. Which is, of course, exactly what dogs exhibit when they maintain their puppy playfulness into old age. Something not found in wild populations, as there's no evolutionary advantage to it.

Domestication is interesting, according to Diamond, in that very few species have been successfully fully domesticated. What are they? Chickens, geese, ducks, turkeys, sheep, cattle, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters, rats, camels, donkeys, horses, (but not zebras), and that's pretty much it.

And there's a few very borderline cases like elephants and birds of prey.

But most mammals don't seem to want to know. I can't think why. If you could domesticate a gorilla, think what a great road worker, or club bouncer, you'd have.

That's pretty unkind to road workers and club bouncers man.

 

[Borachio]

That's pretty unkind to road workers and club bouncers man.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be unkind.

I think gorillas are excellent*. Also road workers and club bouncers.

*and very wise to not entertain domestication.

 

[Farm Boy]

I guess they would have a pretty massive excellence at intimidation. Talk about a bouncer that could literally rip your arm off and beat you with it.

 

[Traitorfish]

Talk about the compensation you'd be paying out when your bouncer ripped somebody's arm off and beat them with it.

 

[Samson]

The list of domesticated animals is bigger than you might think, and the semi-domesticated list is actually pretty large. Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals

But I agree with you, the ration of domesticated to wild animals is teeny tiny. I wonder if we haven't domesticated more species because we couldn't, or if we just didn't try.

I think it is fairly well established (from attempting to domesticate other animals) that we have domesticated all animals that are possible to domesticate, certainly if there is any advantage in domesticating them.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I think it is fairly well established (from attempting to domesticate other animals) that we have domesticated all animals that are possible to domesticate, certainly if there is any advantage in domesticating them.

I'm not so sure on this. Take the silver fox example as a prime reason why this may not be true.

 

[ELITEOFWARMAN8]

I bought their 'auntie at home' kit. It was more difficult to make pretzels than I expected.

Yeah. It was way to hard to fix when I brought a box too. For me, it's just easier buying them.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yeah. It was way to hard to fix when I brought a box too. For me, it's just easier buying them.

There are no stores near me.

I felt a little duped because I thought it was the kind of box where you take the food out of it and just put it in the oven! I need to read the labels more often...

 

[Flying Pig]

I think it is fairly well established (from attempting to domesticate other animals) that we have domesticated all animals that are possible to domesticate, certainly if there is any advantage in domesticating them.

It is theoretically possible to domesticate almost any animal that can be tamed, and we've done so with only a tiny, tiny fraction of those.

 

[Borachio]

A lot depends on how you define domesticate.

Domestication (from Latin domesticus) is the process whereby a population of animals or plants is changed at the genetic level through a process of selection, in order to accentuate traits that benefit humans. It differs from taming in that a change in the phenotypical expression and genotype of the animal occurs, whereas taming is simply the process by which animals become accustomed to human presence.

I think most people assume that domesticated animals can be bred in captivity as well as tamed.

This is where the elephant can not really be considered fully domesticated, since, I believe, most of those in use in India have been caught from the wild.

(But I should check my facts before I post.)

 

[Flying Pig]

Indeed. Domestication means selectively breeding animals to create an entirely new species more favourable to humans, which has been done with only a handful of animals - however, it could theoretically be done with any animal that can be tamed, that is, made to accept and tolerate humans. That's pretty much all of them.

 

[Cutlass]

Except the ones that don't breed well in captivity. Which is a number of the larger ones.

 

[Borachio]

@FP
I'm not sure if this is true. Elephants breed very poorly in zoos or not at all.

Of course, in theory, given a sufficiently large captive population and enough of an intensive selective breeding regime, using e.g. artificial insemination, it might be possible. (I rather like the idea of a dog-sized elephant as a pet.)

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Except the ones that don't breed well in captivity. Which is a number of the larger ones.

You could theoretically create an entire artificial- or enclosed, but natural, environment that will allow them to breed. Or selectively cull/neuter all the 'undesirable' elements of a population to ensure the desired characteristics.

I know this is crazy, just felt like nitpicking for no reason.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Indeed. Domestication means selectively breeding animals to create an entirely new species more favourable to humans, which has been done with only a handful of animals - however, it could theoretically be done with any animal that can be tamed, that is, made to accept and tolerate humans. That's pretty much all of them.

Honestly, I'm not even sure you'd have to tame an animal to force it to breed the way you want to.