1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The Medieval Economy

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Medieval: Conquests' started by Kailric, Sep 15, 2013.

  1. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,671
    Location:
    UK
    Market Demand System:
    The system I was proposing was again not something you need to do, it is just something that is good to do and will help your empire thrive and beat the competition.
    At the moment you don't even need fealty to win the game the Pope will eventually attack you whether you have the fealty or not.
    I agree we need the AI/Auto trade/transport stuff finished so that you do not have to micromanage small amounts of differing yields of every type to every city, but we (I think) are already agreed and you guys are on your way to having that level of automation AI available.

    From the demands from citizens coding side of things. Am I right or wrong in thinking that a 'demand per profession' exists?
    Like I see it mentioned in the pedia under different units.
    So the actual Infrastructure is there for unit types to 'want' to consume goods, they just need to be told what and how much?
    Then the market needs to be coded to react to the level of 'met' demand. (codey work part)
    If it is just xml work (adding Yield Types and numbers to profession demands) then we just need a plan of what it kinda should look like, who should want what, then we go monkey hunting!! :D

    Fealty Production as a whole is another issue.
    First the question can a large empire currently make enough fealty to make more than a 20-50% differnce to loyalty empire wide or even in an individual city?

    I personally fail to get above 10% empire wide I think, but I will freely admit I am a bit rubbish at properly organising it's production empire wide, but I don't even get above 50% in a big city I think. (probably even less than that...)

    Does Anyone else succeed at getting a decent amount?

    The other side of fealty is like I said before, it feels 'nice' to make it, you might get some city benefits, you might catch a few FFs before your opponents, etc. but I sort of don't care and it is not the end of my empire if I don't.

    But Shouldn't it be?

    If hardly anyone is loyal, then why are they doing what we tell them to?
     
  2. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,671
    Location:
    UK
    But again, you don't NEED money to make a weapon or an armour, you can make a weaponsmith shop without money, you can make an armoursmith shop without money, you can make the ingredients without money, you can make the pop and soldier without money.
    It just takes a hell of a lot longer.
    So if you are serious about winning the game then you need to be serious about getting into foreign markets and getting gold from your Domestic Products.
     
  3. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    3,094
    Location:
    Marooned, Y'isrumgone
    Yes, that's why I propose we redo Fealty. Even if you do have high Fealty in all your cities, you can take a Loyal Subject, found a new settlement with him, and he instantly becomes a disgruntled Subject that you have to win his loyalty back. So, yes, this part needs a rewrite and we can discuss that in the Fealty thread.

    Actually, it is not Profession based, but Unit based. And yeah the system is there and to recall history Night coded it, but left it to some one else to flesh it out and I didn't really like the current state of it, plus it would really take some time invested to get all the numbers to make sense to players, so like the Prospector stuff, it just needs opted out until it is balanced and well tested. Also, currently you don't really need it as it just peddles a few wares each turn, which with the AI traders this will be handle much more efficiently. So, as mentioned there needs to be another important benefit to this to make it worth the time.

    Well, as mentioned we can discuss this in the Fealty thread. In my current game I have 75 Units on turn 131, with 1% Fealty, so I have 169 more turns to make my people love me. And I don't really understand why they don't like me now? I mean I keep them safe from Harm. Well, there where a few incidences where a worker or peddler was molested and that one casualty (actually the whole game I've lost 2 Free Peasants, one Wagon Train, 1 Master Armorer (he should have won damnit!) and 2 Veteran Soldiers, but I have killed a total of 40 Bandits/Saracen/Marauders and not to mention all the Bears and Wolves I've killed! No one is starving, they all have good jobs, so why in the hell do they not like me?:confused: Ok, time to bring out the bat:trouble:

    Because of the Bat!
     
  4. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,671
    Location:
    UK
  5. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,987
    I see no technical reason for not adding demands to professions as well. The question is if we want that badly enough to spend the time coding it.
     
  6. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,671
    Location:
    UK
    No I thnk unit based is fine. I think..

    Noble
    Expert Miner

    These are unit types right?
    I think that is the way to handle it.
    Although it would be interesting if production guys demanded more/different than cheap old field workers..
    But at the moment, we need a benefit to supplying demands, as we already have plenty of ways to make gold (and most of them are better).
     
  7. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    3,094
    Location:
    Marooned, Y'isrumgone
    Oooo, sticks and stones may break my bones, but chains and whips excite me:whipped:

    I wouldn't touch it at the moment. We need a viable reason for this system that is central to running your empire, at the moment it is not and I would rather spend time on other things.
     
  8. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    3,094
    Location:
    Marooned, Y'isrumgone
    Ok, big things planned and bigger ideas...

    Trading

    I made it so that Minor Civs offer the better prices for Demanded Yields, so if a Minor Civ desires Silk, you will get just a good as price from them than any market out there. In vanilla the Indians would never give you what you could get in Europe, so this change will make trading with locals for certain goods even more desirable, however....

    I am adding new functionality to Foreign Trading Posts: they will give a monetary discount to Purchases and Bonuses to Sells, so the above mentioned "good price" will be based on the level your Foreign Trading Post(FTP). To raise the Level of a FTP I am thinking perhaps you gain Experience through trade deals at that specific FTP, and thus increase the level of your FTP. The Higher the Level the cheaper buy prices, higher sell prices, and more quantity of goods offered.

    This will not take the place of Trade Screens, this will however allow for those golden deals that last for a time. In my current game I just discovered a large Island where lives 2 Minor Civs, since they still have all their Gold ready to make deals, selling them their Desired goods would reap some heavy rewards. Alas, all Civs only have so much gold to spend, then you must wait till they build up their Gold reserves once again, so the Trade Screens will always be an important factor.

    Administration

    Gold in M:C isn't hard to come by once you get up and running, so I have a couple changes planned to compensate. I am thinking to rename the YIELD_FEALTY to something more fitting like Administration (long word I know) and here is my reasoning... the so called Fealty doesn't really represent Fealty in the least, and better represents Administration. So, just like Liberty Bells produced Rebel Sentiment, Administration can produce Fealty and we can have other Factors that effect Fealty as well, but Fealty will be handled in a different update, right now I want to concentrate on Administration.

    Civics will require YIELD_ADMIN, I have early code for requiring Yields for Civics but have not finished this out yet. Each Civic (besides the Primitives) will have an Admin cost each turn, and if you fell to keep up with this your Realm will go into Anarchy and a random Civic will revert back to its primitive state. There may also be a Gold cost per turn as well, depends on testing. I plan to review all the Civics, redo some, but make them all viable. Also, the first city a Player founds will be his Capital so we can add more Capital Civic effects as well.

    Another change is to add back Yield requirements for Techs. I am thinking the Minimum Yield will be YIELD_GOLD, with some Techs requiring more, plus perhaps the Specialist feature as well.

    These changes will require the Player to really think about his choices and how he plans to run his Empire. Also, it will require more YIELD_ADMIN (currently Fealty), which will automatically produce more Fealty in your realm.

    Taxes Idea

    Lib made mention his ideas for WHM on taxes, and I can't remember the exact concept but it had something to do with Peoples demands being met, perhaps in functionality my ideas are similar. Anyway, currently in M:C you have two choices, either side with the Pope and he will Tax you with Tithes or go against the Pope and he will label you a Heretic and have no dealings with you, other than calling Crusades against you periodically (how thoughtful). So, my idea is either way, you will have an ever increasing extra Administration (call it what you will, Maintenance perhaps) costs that is taken out of all your Trade Deals. Certain civics can also increase or reduce your Administration costs. Other details of how the costs increases/decrease are still up for debate, but with this extra costs the Pope's Tithe will be restricted in that it will only ever go so high, and perhaps even back down with deals like, "If you do this thing here, I'll reduce your tithe for a time." Anyway, that is some more talk and ideas on this never ending subject:nuke:
     
  9. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,987
    How about letting ships be allowed to be automated traders to trade to foreign cities? That would be ideal in a case like that. Possibly you would have to load a trader on to the ship for that to happen, which would be good btw if traders eventually gain experience and that way get better prices for you.

    Remember that I just split civc code out of infos and player cpp files. That would most likely clash big time with a change like that.

    I'm thinking of an implementation. In order to reduce the number of XML values, the yield cost could be the price of each :science: for techs and it could be switching cost for civics. If we add numbers to each yield in costs (can't remember if it's already there), then we would also gain the ability to have to spend multiple of the same yield on each :science:.
     
  10. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,671
    Location:
    UK
    Trading
    Sounds Great!

    Admin.
    Sounds Great!
    Look forward to hearing about the new roles and methods of Admin. and Fealty.

    Am I right in assuming that Fealty will move into the realm of Culture and Immigration, being a combo yield derived from multiple sources, like Admin., Education and Culture?

    Tax
    Sounds Great!

    Yes I think our ideas overlap.

    My Idea:
    Spoiler :

    (Not entirely compatible with the M:C 'World')
    Pope = (Rival in Your Kingdom/Representative of the People)
    Tax = 'Tax Break' for 'The People'
    So the system is flipped on it's head. You start off with 100% control of your nation's stuff (0% Tax)
    You have a relationship with your people (Diplomatic relationship 0-100 or perhaps -100-100)
    Various Actions give +/- points to this relationship.

    Positive:
    Build Something Nice +
    Trade/Give some money to the people +
    Give them some yields +

    Negative:
    Make Money - (Oi! We want some money too! Or maybe a hospital to take care of Nanna!)
    Be at war -

    and other such things.

    If you are in the positive spectrum and keeping your people happy 50-100 or 0-100, (depending on which scale) the Rival/People give you nice things much like the King/Pope.

    Free Units, Money, Yields, a reduction in Tax Break, etc.

    If you are in the Bad Spectrum of Relationship 0-50, -100-0 bad things happen.

    Raised Tax Break, Demand Money, Demand Yields, Censures (Revolts, Stirkes, etc.) Even all out civil war (REF 'Invasion').
     
  11. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,671
    Location:
    UK
    In another section we talked about the idea of traders having a 'boat' promotion of some sort, that would let them trade on land and over seas. (I think a bit like how raiders move around currently) So that could be the solution to that, making a few succesful land trades gives your merchant enough money to expand to naval trading.

    Although I like the idea of automated boat trades however it comes.
     
  12. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    3,094
    Location:
    Marooned, Y'isrumgone
    At the moment it is still up to debate, but perhaps something along those lines. We started talking about all the things that effect Fealty in the the Fealty thread so we'll be looking into that. A good Admin effects Fealty of course, when things are running well, so any events that cause you to go into Anarchy, such as Civics reverting to primitive states, would perhaps take a hit on your Fealty.

    Just depends on how much gets done. I like the idea of Traders gaining promotions and getting a Boat upgrade, but for sure trading ships will start out with the ability to Auto Trade your wares like Night mentioned.
     
  13. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,987
    I kind of like the idea of adding the land trader unit in the cargo of a ship to allow it to trade. I view the standard ship as just that: a ship. If it arrives like that at the foreign city, there will be nobody to negotiate the actual transaction unless you add somebody on the ship to do just that.

    Going back to my idea of adding units to ships to give them promotions. What if we have a trader promotion. That way a trader can give the ship that promotion if it is added and we will not even have to add more code than already planned :D
     
  14. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    3,094
    Location:
    Marooned, Y'isrumgone
    Back to the drawing board for Plotgroup Markets. It seems having the two systems (those being manual trade vs autosellings goods to plotgroup markets) just clash with each other. Already we could sell all our goods we wanted to pretty quick manually, although it was a hassle, but even then having them trickle away slowly just seemed counter productive. Now, with the automation and a good GUI this can be done with ease and much quicker. So, I'm not seeing any substantial use for it right now as is.

    Anyway, keep this in mind, especially when I release the next test version.
     
  15. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,987
    Plotgroup Markets never worked as intended :(

    I'm not sure what we should do about them. I like the idea of supplying your citizens and fulfilling their demands, but the current code isn't up to the task. Either that or the XML setup is horrible and lacks demand entirely.

    I have a really quick fix for a release without a domestic marked: comment out the lines to read yield demands. That way nobody will request anything.
     
  16. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,671
    Location:
    UK
    Yeah my feeling towards the domestic market has always been this idea of 'making your empire happy' rather than 'making your empire money'.

    Whether it is happiness or productivity or whatever we choose to make it about, I always feel it is about supplying the needs of a growing empire or your empire will get grumpy and kill you.

    So a portion of your production has to be effectively distributed amongst your people for them to consume, or they will go somewhere else to get their needs met.

    Almost like a reverse immigration system...

    Every one has a need(s) like 2 cloth and 2 grapes. (Or whatever for who ever)

    Every time a need is not met, (this could be checked whenever, every turn, every ten. etc.) it adds a point to the migration counter. (Just like the immigration counter)

    If that bar gets filled up, someone leaves. (could be random, or could be from a pool of pop that have the most missed upkeep, I don't know, that kind of thing would be performance conditional). Just like how a random person, (Chosen from the random pool of 3) arrives when immigration is met.

    That was just an idea I just had and ran with for a moment.

    The overarching point was that is shouldn't be about making money, it should be about making a better empire (in whatever form that takes) so an empire that provides for it's domestic market will be a better empire than one that does not.

    Because we already have a foreign market system that is much better at making us money than the domestic one.
     
  17. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,987
    However reverting domestic marked to just a happiness factor is wrong too. The original intention is to get a source of income if you can't trade with foreign powers for whatever reason. Right now you can always trade, which might be part of the problem. You can make a profit, but you never end up with all players saying "you sell 3 grapes/citizen each turn. We don't want that many". War, isolation, pope decrees and other stuff could affect trade too.

    Right now your economy is better with 2 cities and 1 native on an island than if you had 3 cities and are alone. That makes little sense.
     
  18. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    3,094
    Location:
    Marooned, Y'isrumgone
    It is working as intended I think, but the intention at the moment is just to make money. I tried two systems, the one you implemented then the one I implemented and just having a goal of making money to me just isn't worth the while.

    The making your empire happy part perhaps can be looked at in another release and we can perhaps make something out of the code for that.
     
  19. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,671
    Location:
    UK
    But in terms of game mechanics, your empire works without money, your domestic productivity works without money, you can make your empire without money... it is just a bit crap.

    The real heavy weight empires of the world have always(more or less) had a powerful hand in foreign trade. Rome, Britain, America. There power was always much greater than the sum of their parts because they were crushing it in foreign markets. Rome was always on the verge of collapse with egypts grain supply keeping it fed.

    Money moves you from the piddling, middling end of the empire scale, to the dominators.

    If you want to be a dominator you have to shove your hand down the throat of your competitors and rip out their goodies!

    I think the only domestic 'money maker' should be silver, that can domestically be turned into coinage.
    As many improvements and the like can now be built with yields rather than having to have money for them. (like the sheep pastures)

    Gold is about being faster (rush building etc.) and (eventually) being stronger (because the best soldiers need money).

    Your empire won't automatically die out without gold, it will just never become great and your legend will fade into the never spoken of mists of albion.
     
  20. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,671
    Location:
    UK
    Yes, it wasn't a suggestion for the current release.

    I would say for the next release just don't worry about it, it will be an under utilised system like it is now. There will be potnetial for it to grow in the future, and the next release is about testing and enjoying the host of other modifications and systems.
     

Share This Page