The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact

[red_elk]

If Germany did not see this as preemptive strike, I am not sure how to describe it, as complete and utter madness falls short. I know, Hitler was pretty mad, but in his works he shows that he understood what war on two fronts meant for Germany...

Basically, I believe this is what Occam's Razor should be about. It made sense for Stalin to want to attack, and therefore it made sense for Hitler to try and preempt him. The opposite makes equally little sense imho.

Now you are literally repeating Dr. Goebbels propaganda. My congratulations.
Like Occam's Razor principle?
1. There are no evidences that Hitler indeed expected Soviet attack. But there are evidences that Germans seriously (by several times) underestimated size and potential of Soviet army.
2. There are no evidences of Soviet plans to attack Germany in June-July 1941. Quite the opposite, Stalin's actions show that he tried to avoid war in 1941.

 

[Yeekim]

Taking advantage doesn't necessarily mean invasion. For example, USA after WW2 took full advantage of weakened Europe, in economical and geopolitical sense.

Alright. But in our case, we would eventually have arrived at strengthened Germany, instead of weakened enemies.

As for world revolution, the events in 1919-1921 (Poland) and 1939-1940 (Baltic states and Finland) showed that idea of world revolution was an outdated ideological crap. It was not being taken seriously in Soviet government after 1930.

Umm, and how exactly you think these events showed that?

Now you are literally repeating Dr. Goebbels propaganda. My congratulations.

The fact that Dr Goebbels has also claimed something does not by itself make it wrong. Hell, a few lines before someone said:

It was quite possible that he would attack. Later, not in 1941.

And I still don't see what exactly was Stalin waiting for?

1. There are no evidences that Hitler indeed expected Soviet attack. But there are evidences that Germans seriously (by several times) underestimated size and potential of Soviet army.

He simply couldn't wait to get into a war on two fronts? And noone in German High Command was smart enough to arrive at the conclusion we both arrived at - namely that Stalin's attack would be "quite possible"?

2. There are no evidences of Soviet plans to attack Germany in June-July 1941. Quite the opposite, Stalin's actions show that he tried to avoid war in 1941.

According to some historians, there are evidence aplenty. The fact that no document titled "Plan for attacking Germany in June-July 1941" has been found, does not mean there is no evidence. As for "the opposite", why exactly should we believe Zhukov's memoirs more than we believe Goebbels, especially in that particular matter? He was hardly a "neutral observer" either.

 

[red_elk]

Umm, and how exactly you think these events showed that?

In brief, Soviet-Polish war showed that military interwention could not provoke proletarian revolution in European countries. The events of 1939-1940 confirmed this. Also, in 1925 in USSR was adopted thesis about building "Socialism in one country", which basically meant giving up the idea of world revolution.

The fact that Dr Goebbels has also claimed something does not by itself make it wrong. Hell, a few lines before someone said:

The fact that Stalin might some time later probably attack Germany, or might not attack, doesn't mean that German attack was a pre-emptive strike. Otherwise, if Germans attacked France instead of Poland in 1939, it would be also pre-emptive strike. Or Japanese attack on Pearl-Harbor.

Pre-emptive strike assumes there was a very serious threat, danger of being attacked very soon, which cannot be said about Germany in June 1941, simply because USSR had not enough forces in Western districts and didn't declare mobilization.

I'm not claiming that all what had been said by Goebbels is wrong by definition. The problem is that you are repeating unapproved claims which were also used in Nazi propaganda.

And I still don't see what exactly was Stalin waiting for?

I don't know. You said he could attack already in 1939 - what he was waiting for two years?

He simply couldn't wait to get into a war on two fronts? And noone in German High Command was smart enough to arrive at the conclusion we both arrived at - namely that Stalin's attack would be "quite possible"?

There was no two-fronts war for Germany until 1944, thanks to our allies. Hitler just considered that instead of attacking Britain, it would be easier to defeat USSR in a few months, before winter. And started land war in Russia.

About German high command, the same. They didn't have wikipedia to check number of Soviet tanks in 1941. Soviet military potential was underestimated very seriously and there are no single evidence that possibility of Soviet attack was taken seriously by anybody in German command. They even didn't have military plans of defensive war on Eastern front (unlike USSR).

According to some historians, there are evidence aplenty. The fact that no document titled "Plan for attacking Germany in June-July 1941" has been found, does not mean there is no evidence.

I wouldn't say "according to some historians", talking about Rezun's conspiracy theories.
"According to some historians" there was no holocaust - it doesn't mean all the other historians should take them seriously.

As for "the opposite", why exactly should we believe Zhukov's memoirs more than we believe Goebbels, especially in that particular matter? He was hardly a "neutral observer" either.

Your question is strange.
First, because Zhukov was a witness of describing events, and he wasn't describing Stalin in especially favourable light in his memoirs.
Second, you don't have to believe Zhukov's memoirs - even if he was wrong it doesn't prove that Stalin was about to attack Germany in June 1941.
Third, because Goebbels' "evidences" is not the best possible foundation to build your position on it. Lying was his profession.