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The Mongol Horde: An Early Conquest Succession Game

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Stories & Tales' started by Prof. Garfield, Jan 23, 2011.

  1. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Early Conquest seemed to be the most appealing idea after the last game, and no one voiced any opposition to it.

    Since most of us (I think) are inexperienced with this form of game, I decided to make things easier. It is a deity game, but I've eliminated restarts (I've also set the game to Bloodlust, but that shouldn't impact anything). Playing as purple will save us the trouble of worrying about our key civ.

    Our starting techs are Horseback Riding and Bronze Working.


    (1) 4000 BC: Move units.
    (2) 3950 BC: Build Karakorum. With access to the Iron, I decide for the size 1 trick.
    (3) 3900 BC: Begin Ceremonial Burial. Hut: Warrior Code.
    (4) 3850 BC: …
    (5) 3800 BC: …
    (6) 3750 BC: …
    (7) 3700 BC: Hut (31, 15): horsemen (supported).
    (8) 3650 BC: Ignore hut, since I don’t want two units supported from Karakorum until settler is built.
    (9) 3600 BC: …
    (10) 3550 BC: start road on buffalo.

    The settler in Karakorum should be done in a couple turns. I'm wondering if I should have, after finding the whale, abandoned the size 1 trick prospect and built another city. In any case, the second settler is roading the buffalo, and will be able to build a city on the coast in 4 turns. Given that it will take 4 turns to build the second city anyway, it might (not positive) be worth switching Karakorum to grassland and build up some food (finishing the settler as scheduled will get it to a new location 2 turns sooner, but delay will get the city 6 extra food).

    There are two huts at the moment. I have the horseman waiting beside the one on the swamp, but I'm now thinking it might be better to wait until we build the second city before checking it out (at the moment, the chance of nomad is suppressed).

    We have a massive amount of river; that will make great ICS. Remember that, since this is a normal sized map, we'll start feeling the riot factor after 4 cities, so we'll need extra warriors pretty soon.

    I only played 10 turns since early conquest will (hopefully) be finished in substantially fewer turns than a typical succession game.
     

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  2. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I will start tomorrow and ask Peaster if he wants to play or help.
     
  3. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Thanks. At Apolyton, "help" meant "RCC" (robust constructive criticism) of the previous player's decisions, often with fairly detailed suggestions for the next player. They emphasized learning over fun, but it was still fun. If people here want that kind of help, I can give that.
     
  4. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    I'd definitely appreciate RCC, and chisel my name in stone in the succession order please.
     
  5. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    @Peaster.....glad you find the thread without me asking you......and thanks for helping. RCC is fine for me too. There are still parts of civ2 I can improve. And this is one of them.

    Prethoughts: As Pr. Garfield mentioned we need a lot of cities as soon as possible. This means ICS. We also need to get to Monarchy quickly. This means that I won't pop huts. The change is bigger we might get something else and won't get Monarchy as early as we can get it now.

    We need Marco Polo to find out where the enemy is and perhaps lighthouse too (depending on map).

    When playing early conquest games Peaster combines it with a lot of hides trade. So when we get to that point we should deliver them for some nice cash to rushbuy our army.

    Log:
    turn 1 - 3500 bc: -
    turn 2 - 3450 bc: settler build (size 1 trick) in Karakorum -> start warrior
    turn 3 - 3400 bc: -
    turn 4 - 3350 bc: we are nr.4 powerfull civ (mediocre) / Samarkand build (30,24) and starts on a settler / Bokhara build (28,18) and start with a warrior. The warrior in Karakorum should be used in Samarkand (change support to this city!!!!!!) for hapinesscontrol.
    turn 5 - 3300 bc: -
    turn 6 - 3250 bc: -
    turn 7 - 3200 bc: - Ceremonial Burial discovered->start learning Alphabet (33 beakers needed)
    turn 8 - 3150 bc: warrior build in Karakorum->used warrior to reveal hidden tiles southeast of city->should be moved to Samarkand for hapinesscontrol->start settler in Karakorum
    turn 9 - 3100 bc: warrior in Bokhara
    turn 10 -3050 bc: -

    The horsemen is exploring right now and can help finding out if we're alone in this island.

    We can build a settler in Karakorum without a warrior. But when the foodbox is filled the worker should be replaced to the ironmountain and changed to a grass+shield field to complete the settler in the last turn.

    I have already some questions for Peaster:
    At which point do you start building triremes and when/where do yo build barracks?
     

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  6. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    To answer Magic:

    I build barracks pretty late, roughly at the time I'm researching Poly (I have no need of vet warriors/etc). I usually build one in the homeland, and RB a few in my outposts, depending on my budget and schedule. But I don't mind attacking with non-vets if the situation requires that.

    I try to make all these happen together; Trade, MPE, LH and my first [loaded] triremes. That's because none of these are fully useful without the others. But it's just not possible to synch them perfectly. So, usually I try for Maps as an off-path tech towards Trade (or Trade first) and build / load triremes with settlers ASAP after Maps. If I have no info from MPE yet, these settlers can simply colonize nearby islands for the sake of expansion. But I try for MPE and/or LH asap, so I can send flotillas closer to the AI. Long ago, I tried to load these flotillas with elephants instead, but found that waiting for Poly usually takes too long, and settlers are as good, maybe better.

    I often trade in Hides, in combination with long ship chains, which helps pay for RBs of overseas barracks and units. But that takes time, so I do that mainly in long games [eg huge maps, restarts on, etc]. It is OK to do it here, but if we want the fastest possible conquest, we can probably manage it with a fairly lean civ.

    ------------------------------------------
    Somehow, I missed the bottom half of Magic's post at first, and wrote the following, not knowing he had already played. I will leave it here, in case it interests someone, and will take a look at MGs Round 2 save tomorrow...

    Round 1 notes ..... Prof G may not want "RCC". Also, I don't see a 4000BC save, so it's not 100% clear to me how the game started. But the size one trick seems OK and the decision to pause at hut 2 seems OK. I normally set Taxes to 60% from the start, to allow some RBs, but we may need a fast Monarchy here, so I don't really object to 60% science. I'd prefer to use the settler for some road work while waiting for the size one trick, but a hut-pop is not bad either.

    I think you've played correctly, to finish the size one settler ASAP. In part, that's because the second settler is more-or-less wasting time. One or two roads near the capital would be worthwhile, and/or popping a hut, but after that, it has not much useful work.
    I'd also wait until we switch research from cb to alphabet, or even later. Currently, I think we should be able to beeline for monarchy (cb, alp, cl, moy) with no off-path techs. Someone should check my reasoning on this, though. If the next hut is an off-path tech, it messes up this plan badly.
    I'm also guessing this will be a fairly short game. Deity level will slow us down a little, but the map is not huge, restarts are off, and the terrain looks OK. So, we should plan on ICS growth until approx 10-30 cities depending on tastes (without Big Trade). Then build HG and MPE (and maybe LH) and send out flotillas asap... roughly 700BC, I guess. Probably finish up approx 300-400AD if the sea routes are OK and we have no big AI surprises. Of course, people can play as they like, and form plans as we go - this is just how I imagine it going.

    The oceans 10 and 1 are a bit confusing, so it's still hard to decide whether we are on a large land mass or an island. Maybe this is not urgent, but I'd rather know asap, and would consider sending the horse to explore. If not, then a boat/etc asap.

    Suggestions for the next round: Finish the settler in 2 turns as Prof G planned, and then take care to move workers to grass to avoid starvation. Also, start producing a warrior to keep peace. The new settler could go one of 3 ways; 1) East, partly to check whether there is a special at (35,27), but this risks wasting time if there is no good site under the black. 2) SW to make a port towards the center of the map, probably closer to the AI. I prefer 3), to build a city on (30,24) pausing for a road on the tile in between. The road will provide arrows and may allow 2 cities to share a militia unit later, etc. But it is optional.

    The 2nd settler can go for a port on the river at (28,18) or on grass at (29,21). I slightly prefer (29,21) since it doesn't use up a shielded tile, and it may have less corruption / waste in the despotism years. But (28,18) gets an extra arrow and leaves a bit more room for expansion later, so it's not bad.

    I'm not sure about the huts. If my thinking about the tech path is correct, it's safest not to pop any more until the c.laws --> moy step. We can expect monarchy within about 25 turns that way, about the time we are building our 6th city, and all is well. But it's also OK with me to take a risk, hoping for nomads or gold or a useful unit.
     
  7. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    I would certainly like some RCC.

    I realized that I forgot to save the game at 4000 BC as soon as I finished the turns. Start location was shield grassland northwest of Karakorum.
     
  8. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    @Peaster....It looks like you were writing your post in the time I posted first then started playing and because there no reply was edited my post....

    Did not build the road because I thought it's better to start the new city sooner. Next settler can do it soon enough....

    I almost forgot HG.....We sure can use that wonder for hapiness control...
     
  9. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    I'm not sure if Peaster intends to play or just critique, so I'll grab the reins next.
     
  10. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    turn 1 - 3000BC: Warrior rehomed and fortified in Samarkand. Bokhara warrior fortified. Horseman explores westward.
    turn 2 - 2950BC: Karakorum foodbox full in one turn, worker assigned to iron mountain with possibility of parole someday.
    turn 3 - 2900BC: Horse finds another hut, saves it for the popping spree later.
    turn 4 - 2850BC: -
    turn 5 - 2800BC: Alphabet>CoL, 12 turns. Bokhara and Samarkand grow. Bokhara works river instead of buffalo for the second worker for now, so the foodbox will be 20/30 in 9 turns instead of 9/30 in 7 when the settler is built. Samarkand can switch to double forest for 5-turn settler but would only have 2 food in the box, or double grass to complete in 6 with 14 in the box; working grass.
    turn 6 - 2750BC: Another river discovered SW.
    turn 7 - 2700BC: The river is short, 4 grass and a swamp only. Another hut uncovered.
    turn 8 - 2650BC: -
    turn 9 - 2600BC: Karakorum settler is ready, worker switched back to grass.
    turn 10 - 2500BC: Samarkand settler, heads north to road toward buffalo, 14 food left as predicted. Oops, switching to grass left us one shield short of a settler, foodbox is full. I think it'll work out all right next turn. Horse has found a mountain range.

    Bokhara is on track for a settler in 3 turns with 20 food. Karakorum will build one next turn also, I don't know what to expect as the foodbox is full with 2 more coming in. The lone explorer horse may have ranged too far, I just ran it into the black anywhere it could double move.

    View attachment GE_B2500.SAV
     
  11. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    OK. I think we agree about how to play round 2; your play matches my suggestions, even though I hadn't posted them yet.
    I don't think there is a clear answer to this; Grigor and I discussed it a few times and he always prefered not to road (yet). I prefer to road because it brings in an extra arrow per turn, with total present value = approx 20g. The cost is 2 settler turns, which has a value of approx 25g. I think the added mobility for future units is worth the 5g + 2 sheaves, but this is debatable.

    @Mackerel: You played round 3 well. I played it quickly myself for comparison. I handled Karakaroum a little differently, building the road ASAP and a warrior for each city. My workers were on grass rather than iron, so my Kar reached size 2 sooner. In 2500BC, it had more food, but fewer shields than yours - roughly equivalent overall value. Suggestions:

    Spend most of your gold on RBs, to get the next settlers out asap. In -2500, we have 26g, which is not excessive, but I suggest that the next player spend most of that within about 5 turns. It may be too late for current productions (RBs to row 2 or 3 are ideal IMO) so maybe we should spend it on another warrior, to be shared among a cluster of 4 cities near Kar.

    Were you checking for "nearest city" info from the exploring horseman? This can help us get some early idea of the world before MPE. That info is useful in deciding whether we need defense, whether to aim for tribute, which way to expand and so on. I don't have any great ideas about which direction to send the horse, but have a slight preference for sending everything South, since we are in the North. [Or further West, just to get further away].

    Round 4: The first decision will be how to use the 2 settlers. I prefer [see above] to make short roads at (30,22) and (31,25). These are still optional, but we're only getting an advance every 12 turns (even with science at 60%), which seems a bit slow, and roads would help. Of course, new cities will help too, and it seems likely that we'll have more size 2 cities soon, to make more arrows, and speed science.

    For the next sites, (29,21) is a pretty obvious choice, but it will need the whale. Seems OK, since Bokhara doesn't need it. For the Kar settler, (30,28) looks good. After that, I guess I'd settle the river valley, and reserve (25,15) for a canal, in case we need access to the North later. It's not clear yet that we'll need any northern ports. I'd like an outpost in the West asap, but we may have to wait for boats, to get there efficiently, or for help from a hut.

    Our land mass is starting to seem pretty large, so we can consider a special hut-strategy. For example, we could aim for Monarchy, then Seafaring (before Trade) to build a few explorers to pop huts very quickly. This often works out great when poor terrain makes ICS very slow. Our terrain is good, so we don't really need this strategy, but can keep it as an option.

    I'd prefer to kibitz rather than play - I tend to get TOO involved if I play. :crazyeye:
     
  12. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    I don't know what you mean by "nearest city" info, please enlighten me?
    This will be my first ICS game also, and while I've read DaveV's guide I'm still a little fuzzy on some concepts. We're trying to keep our cities small by building a settler when they're size 2 with 20 food, so they grow back to size 2 the next turn?
     
  13. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Magic said he cancelled the road I started, yet it is still there. It doesn't matter too much, however. I started it mostly because I didn't want the settler standing around doing nothing for a couple turns waiting to build a city, though I realized once I had started the road that it would delay the city by two turns anyway (the typical delay of building a road), so I'm not sure of the wisdom of building it.

    According to the "goal" option in the science advisor, we won't be offered Monarchy when choosing which tech to research. We might want to consider exploring a few huts in the hope of getting an off path tech.

    However, the tech odds are as follows (assuming the computer program I wrote to check works properly):

    16/93 Code of Laws
    8/93 Currency
    19/93 Iron Working
    7/93 Map Making
    1/93 Masonry
    9/93 Mysticism
    8/93 Polytheism
    1/93 Pottery
    22/93 The Wheel
    1/93 Writing

    We have a 41/93 chance of getting something we need (based on my appraisal, admittedly subject to error, of what we will need in this game). Still, getting any tech will get us to Monarchy sooner, and I think things like The Wheel and Iron Working will remain relatively probable even after we get a few more techs.

    EDIT:

    Open the Karakorum Window and click on the horsemen in the "supported units" window. It will give the location of the unit and the nearest city, in this case Samarkand.
     
  14. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    The road I did not build was near Karakorum.....
     
  15. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Not exactly. The main idea of ICS is fast growth, measured mainly by the number of your cities, which mainly depends on fast settler production. A large city is usually better than a small one because it can produce settlers faster. But a size two city can usually produce a settler (and shrink) before reaching size three, so you don't see many size 3's. This ICS feature can also be good for happiness (no temples needed, etc).

    At Deity, there might be some advantage to your suggestion, in certain cases, because you don't need to build an early militia unit. But std ICS is to build the militia, get to size 2 asap by placing workers on grass, and then give birth asap by placing workers on iron, forest, etc. It is always good to have more sheaves and more shields in a city, but you mainly go for sheaves at size one and shields at size two.

    I think the original idea of ICS was to smother the map with approx 250 cities asap, but you don't have to take it that far. Many players now use "ICS" to mean "use DaveV's methods to grow quickly" - even if you stop at 10 cities.
     
  16. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Prof: First; I didn't know the science advisor could be used that way (are you sure?)
    Second, I tried to calculate what the tech options would be, and decided (without great confidence) that cb->alp->cl->moy should be possible if we get no more techs from huts. Maybe you can check this reasoning ?

    Start: Can pick a 1 or 2 but not a 0 (eg pick cb)
    Next: Can pick a 2 or 0 but not a 1 (but this is skipped when the hut gives wc)
    Next: Can pick a 0 or 1 but not a 2 (eg pick alp)
    Next: Can pick a 1 or 2 but not a 0 (eg pick c.laws)
    Next: Can pick a 2 or 0 but not a 1 (eg pick moy)

    If there is a mistake here, then I'd agree that popping huts is a good bet. But if it is correct, popping now could be very bad.
     
  17. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I think Monarchy is on the list when we can pick a new tech.....I have to look at the game to be sure, but I think Peaster is right on this.
     
  18. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Peaster does seem to be correct. Something I didn't catch when I tested this a while ago (but a test today revealed it) is that the goal option doesn't take into account the tech you are currently researching for pre-requisite purposes when computing what you will be offered (and, thus, if any of the offered techs are on-path to your goal). Code of Laws is a pre-requisite for Monarchy, and that is why it the goal function said the latter tech wouldn't be offered.

    An extra note is this: 10 is probably a large lake, and not the ocean re-named. Square 14,26 has a "continent number" of "1" and it is pretty far removed from the other area of "1" ocean.
     
  19. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I could also use some practice in EC, but will not be available for play until Thursday.

    Looking in the EC guide located here:

    http://www.sethos.gmxhome.de/English/BookOfWar/earlyconquest.html

    it says that trade specials are usually preferred to shields if the arrow-to-shield ratio is 1.5/1. However, with some trade specials (like Fur and Spice) you also get a decent amount of food, which could be problematic because a city using them would get too much food and grow to size 3, making it a challenge to control unrest with only HG. RBing settlers can help control the population, but that technique can only be used for a limited amount of time... what would we do in that case? (the same applies to high food and shield squares, like Pheasant and maybe Whale)
     
  20. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    First, I wouldn't trust anything in the EC guide ! :)

    Food is generally a good thing in ICS, even at size 2 or 3, because it allows you to build more settlers without waiting for the food box to fill [at size one]. Also, larger cities get more workers, which mean more shields and taxes. Size 3's can usually be kept happy with HG, a militia and/or an Elvis, if necessary.

    There's nothing really bad about a size 3. But usually you can [and should] build a settler while the city is still size two. The goal is new settlers asap, and having several size 3 cities may be a sign of ignoring that goal. That's the only reason I'd consider them "bad".

    In my games, I often actually prefer size 3's, for the improved trade bonuses. But that's not really "ICS" thinking, and I doubt it will make sense in this game. BTW - if people want to send out some vans, it is certainly OK. But I don't think we should invest heavily in that [eg long ship chains, etc] if our main goal is speed. In this game, I'd suggest Grigor's "lean" EC style.
     

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