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The Mongol Horde: An Early Conquest Succession Game

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Stories & Tales' started by Prof. Garfield, Jan 23, 2011.

  1. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Let's hope the plan serves us well! I played your turnset quickly and feel you played better than I did, with better overall progress on flotillas. I'm glad you checked for "nearest city" info and noticed Ulundi. I learned of it long ago, but I'm not actually playing. So, I didn't mention it, and put it out of my mind. With more nearest city info, we might triangulate and determine its actual location.

    I notice that the warrior in Shanghai is wounded, so our horseman-flotilla has excellent chances of success next turn. Assuming that, we could then consider peace with China until we can consolidate.

    I'm glad to see the Aleppo flotilla found a canal, but am surprised to see it near the pole at 12,2 ... I expected it would turn south, hugging the coast. But without LH we cannot use it for BOTH the Vikings and the Carths, so I guess this route is good.

    Based on these flotillas, and some optimism, I consider we have 3 civs "down" (Spain, China and Vikings) and 2 to go (Carth and Romans). If we can build a good port on the western sea, I'll feel much better about the last two.

    We agree about the plans for flotillas. I don't fear the Spanish, but Mackerel's fears about barbs are very reasonable. I'm not sure if rushed warriors would help much vs barbs, but an imported dip or ele makes sense, and/or a gamble on the hut at 18,28.

    Personally, I don't like alliances in EC because breaking them involves withdrawing troops. But that's unlikely to be a problem with the Spanish in this game, if we don't wait too long. You didn't mention tribute, but I'm guessing you got some, since you RB'd pretty successfully. IMO we should demand tribute from all the AI's at almost every chance. Also, IIRC some AI has mys. After that, I guess phil or seaf is good.

    I'm curious what people want to produce next. I tend to produce more settlers and boats at this stage, ICSing up to about 25-30 cities. That's a safe flexible plan, consistent with HG, but it may be slight overkill. Elephants + boats is an OK plan too, fast but a bit risky. A few dips seem OK. I'd still disband the legion, which seems to me 20 shields wasted, at least in Bokhara. LH is interesting ... probably not really necessary, but it'd probably pay for itself if we build more than about 10 boats.

    My main advice for the next set is: don't forget Carthage and Rome. These are shaping up as our farthest, toughest opponents. I'd prefer having a "Plan A" and "Plan B" for each asap. Good luck !!
     
  2. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I did not get tribute....did ask but never got it....

    Mackerel is right about the near barbs, but perhaps with some RB we can survive and get to the other site...which is important to get to the Carths...
     
  3. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    preturn 750BC - polar hut 100g. IRB 61g Karakorum settler, will be ready in 2 turns when Bokhara settler is ready for shipping. IRB some 45g on other settlers, 4g toward Basra elephant. Tabriz worker moved from fish to grass, +1 shield -1 food -1 tax.

    Barbarian trireme sinks polar expedition, only the settler who went ashore to pop a hut survived. Canton builds pyramids.

    turn 1 725BC - Khorasan founded (19,25), foreign city shows next to silk, second settler investigates and discovers size 4 Ulundi at (16,24). Second settler moves to defend Khorasan. Horsemen capture Shanghai, 1 veteran, 27g, masonry plundered. Traded warrior code to Carthage for Mysticism, apparently MG didn't actually get it last turn, request for tribute denied. Roman tribute 75, Vikings 50. Spent 63+44 on elephants in Ormuz and Kabul, saving the rest for a rushjob diplomat for Ulundi. Polar explorer settler will move toward Vikings.

    Vikings develop Monarchy. We research Republic (over Construction, Math, Feudalism because I didn't want to kill off the 10s slot yet). Karakorum settler.

    turn 2 700BC - Khorasan spends 72 on diplomat. 75 tribute from vikings. Estimated cost of Ulundi=211g, 106 in treasury. Holding off on additional rushes this turn.

    Vikings begin Colossus. Carthage develops iron working. Khorasan diplomat. Disorder in Khanbalyk from growth, Aleppo from inattention. 300k citizens.

    turn 3 675BC - Actual cost of Ulundi 208g, treasury 126. 100g viking tribute. No plunder, but 2 archers. 50g from Romans enables 61g purchase of an inconveniently located barb archer.

    Viking capital moved to Kaupang. Chinese construction.

    turn 4 650BC - much movement, 11g toward Samarkand settler.

    Romans get const from chinese. Chinese get warrior code from Rome. 2 barb archers attack, one dies.

    turn 5 625BC - Kashgar settler. Basra ele. Hut>Construction. Shangtu founded (15,27). Kazan founded (31, 39).

    Viking government overthrown. Disorder in Kashgar. Chinese attack horseman but fail.

    turn 6 600BC - Quinsay founded (50,26). Nanking captured, 61g. 4 elvis keeping the peace in cities where martial law is not an option, and luxuries would be insufficient.

    Vikings choose monarchy. Samarkand settler.

    turn 7 575BC - Various movements to handle happiness issues, warriors trained to supplement martial law.

    turn 8 550BC - Now I remember how HG works.. abandoning attempts at martial law, stationing warriors outside cities. Kerman founded (54,28) as canal near Shanghai. Tabriz has 2 black hats, as does Aleppo.

    Carthage chariot encounters our settler "near" Rome, we turn down trade request for iron working, they deny tribute yet again. Nishapur settler. 500k citizens.

    turn 9 525BC - Naples founded (41,49).

    Turn 10 500BC - Ship departs from west coast with 2 settlers aboard. No rushes done, some movement available.

    Samarkand has a ship ready to depart with 2 elephants next turn. Whether those go toward Rome or Carthage is up to the next player. In the north, it looks like there's no getting off the pole before Vikingland. I have not demanded tribute in a few turns, enemy coffers and patience should have built up enough to ask again. Carthage has a chariot near a new undefended city, but we can rush something before they can get to us. I have settled east, west, and south, mostly subdued the barbarian horde, pushed back the Chinese, and a new wave of settlers is ready to go out. I struggled with happiness, probably unnecessarily since we have HG, but that's under control now too. Warriors are asleep all over the empire.

    View attachment GE_B500.SAV
     
  4. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    Got the game...

    One thing I don't understand is: We have many sleeping warriors. I can understand not using them, since HG does the happiness job for size 1 and 2 cities. However, why we don't start to disband them for shields or, if we feel like it will be bad for tribute, send them exploring? They could pop some huts, which is usually useful... We are on continent 1 and so are the Vikings, so maybe if we are lucky and pop an advanced tribe near them... because I don't think we will have the resources to spare to make a seaborne invasion, considering we have barbs to deal with first.

    EDIT: Nevermind that, I was too pessimistic at first... but we should still wake up the warriors IMO.
     
  5. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    I put them to sleep maybe 2 turns ago, not knowing what to do with them and needing them out of the cities.
     
  6. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    I'll probably be busy for a couple of days, but will try to check on the game if poss. The 500 save looks better than I expected. We have some slightly offbeat campaigns in progress vs all 5 AI's, with reasonable hope for a quick EC victory.

    Looks like Mackerel saw a lot of action. Too bad about the Aleppo flot; it will be interesting to see if the lone settler can conquer the Vikings (I'd probably settle on hills, RB/fortify a warrior/phalx asap, then ellies. And also prep a 2nd Vik flot as back-up in case this outpost dies).

    The Ulundi action seems to have worked out as well as possible. I'd send the Shangtu flot south along the coast, aiming mainly for 1-2 Carth outposts (approx 20,48? or even 17,57?) but the 2nd might be for used as a Plan B vs Romans.

    Naples looks pretty lonely - I thought we might have a 2nd unit (a 2nd settler?) to help invade vs Rome. Also, not sure we need to make a dip there ... maybe RB an ele instead ? I'd plan on a 2nd flot with 2 ellies (or sub-in 1 settler) into Naples to speed this up.

    Beijing has walls already, so 2 non-vet ellies won't do. I'd consider attacking Canton first instead (I guess we'd have approx a 50% chance to take it with 2 ellies). Safer option: wait for a 2nd flot, maybe even a 3rd. While waiting, our ellies might pick off stray Chinese units. For Beijing, I'd prefer 3 to 4 dips vs the walls + 3 to 4 ellies after that; some of these might be built in Canton. I'm still not sure whether it's better to use dips in these situations or to simply send more vet ellies, but I lean towards the dips. It's OK to send extra dips, since they can be useful later for bribing nearby cities.

    Republic was a little unfortunate since we have to research it ourselves. Maybe choose some tech we might get from the AI ? Maybe impossible, haven't checked. The AI tends to get construction earlier than republic, so that may've been better. This is not super- important, since we already have poly, though it'd be nice to have mono or seaf soon.

    I don't have any great ideas about the idle warriors - this happens in my games too, a standard dilemma. Sometimes they are needed again later as militia in size 3 cities, or when "the hats change", so I don't usually disband mine (but 20 IS a lot, so I wouldn't object to a few disbands of warriors and archers). If any boats have extra space, maybe we can send a few units to defend our outposts, low priority.

    Jokemaster has many good options. I'd certainly consider back-up flots towards the Viks, Canton and/or Rome. Maybe outpost in Spain in about 5-8 turns, low priority. Maybe LH or a few vans to Carthage if the homeland runs out of other good productions. ICS is never totally bad. If we get rich from tribute, maybe RB barracks in outpost(s).

    If possible, estimate how long it should take to conquer each of the 5 other civs. This is a great exercise to improve your EC skills. And it should help us decide where to expend extra efforts (on back-ups and RBs, etc). I'm short on time tonight, but at a glance, the main "delays" seem to be getting to Rome and Carthage. The Vikings are a big "?" to me. I haven't planned out back-up flots for China, but assume that won't take very long.
     
  7. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    If nothing else, having a lot of warriors increases the odds of getting tribute. If we never switch to republic/demo, support is free or at least cheap.
     
  8. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    That's true. And I doubt we'll switch govts here. But I think we already have enough power for tribute; not sure why we aren't getting more of it.

    PS - I'd be cautious with the Carths and Viks for a few turns. Eg no demands for tribute until our outposts are solid, maybe even give them a few techs to raise atts. I'd demand ruthlessly on the Romans and Spanish though (negative reactions welcomed).

    BTW - just noticed M's post that the Viks capital is now Kaupang - thus, not sure where our polar settler should settle. First idea = the hill at 84,2 ... for decent defense, and for a port, and because [theoretically anyway] the tile is not visible from Trondheim. It'd be nice to get closer to the capital, but I don't see a great site, and might expect to be blocked by Vik units anyway. Maybe there are better sites though - I leave this in Jokemaster's capable hands.
     
  9. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    @Mackerel....glad you noticed I did not get Mysticism.....looks like I saved before I realized I still should get Mysticism from the Carths (that's the reason why I picked it)....

    To bad our trireme was beaten by the barbs....
    I also played some extra turns after 750bc and had more luck...but also did notice where Ulundi was placed (but could not tell to spoil our game).

    When at home I will check the savefile and see how close we are to victory....

    I think that after this round (if we still haven't conquered the world) Prof. Garfield should play 5 turns instead of 10 to give more players the change to play 1 more round....
     
  10. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    500 BC (turn 0) Rush 7s in Naples for 16g. Hail Carths: Trade Construction for Iron Working. Give Pottery before they say goodbye. Mood enthusiastic. Move 2 warriors in Bokhara: I will let the city grow to size 3 because it has HG and it could celebrate. Kar Trireme sails east with warriors in board: one will explore con5, the other will reinforce the Chinese front.

    Interturn: Barbs move away. Spanish chariot kills Chinese settler near Tsingato. Carth chariot moves away.

    475 BC (turn 1) Another Warrior in Bokhara: the city will celebrate next turn for +4 trade arrows. Rehome a warrior. Move an Ulundi archer west and uncover more land near Zimbabwé. Pop hut: Feudalism... Tabriz flotilla leaves Samarkand with 2 eles, bound for Rome and later China. Warriors from Kar flotilla land and uncover 2 huts. Move a warrior north of Ormuz: Run in 2 units, a settler roading, Tolède is probably there. Carths: They ask for Poly, rejected (well, obviously...) Update maps. Spain: Trade Construction for The Wheel. Toledo is at (35, 13) and Beijing is size 6! I don’t like that. Best to save that for last. I can see a barb trireme near Viking city of Uppsala. Romans: Give Literacy, Monarchy, Myscitism. Update maps, get 50g tribute. Vikings: Give Construction, Myscitism, Horseback Riding (only other choice The Wheel) Warrior Code (same thing again) Update maps. Get 200g tribute. I can now see some Viking units blocking the way to Vikingland... and Viking units blocking shoreline for barbs. Discover Chinese city of Xinjian at (66, 36) with trireme originally heading for Canton. Ele kills Phalanx and goes in the deep red: vet. The other Ele storms the city: 41g plundered. Get a size 2 city. Settler from Shangtu fleet lands and sees a hut: will leave that one for the dip nearby.
    Interturn: Barb archer moves near our fortified horse on a mountain.

    450 BC (turn 2) WLTKD in Bokhara. Carths: Give The Wheel (decided to be on the safe side) Worshipful. They withdraw troops (a.k.a the chariot near Naples) That’s one problem less to worry about. Archer spots Zimbabwé at (10, 20) Aleppo flotilla leaves for Vikingland with 2 eles onboard, but stays near because of a barb archer threatening Aleppo. Pop hut: 50g. Pop hut: Barbs. On an island, does not matter. Chinese: They offer cease-fire, I refuse. They vow to continue their war. My horse kills a barb archer, in the high yellow.

    Interturn: Barbs kill my warrior. Barb archer near Aleppo. Barbs land near Uppsala, get killed by a Viking legion.

    425 BC (turn 3): Aleppo flotilla comes back, ele kills barb archer. Rush barracks in Bokhara. GODDARNIT just noticed there are walls in Canton. Will attack Tsingato instead, but I suspect I will raze and not capture. Will have to prepare a settler at Xinjian. (not to mention I’m pretty sure my vet ele will not have recovered in time.) Viking units do not move.
    Interturn: Carths start Colossus.

    400 BC (turn 4) Pop hut: Engineering. Build Issos at (21, 17) Romans: 50g. Vikings still do not move. Our tech cost jumped to 29 turns... guess we can say goodbye to Mono.
    Interturn: Vikings do not move. China develops Republic! Sweet!

    375 BC (turn 5) WLTKD in Nanking (riot factor+Elvis+militia+HG) for +1 uncorrupted trade. WLTKD cancelled in Bokhara due to the riot factor. Move the militia out of Bokhara will trigger it again. Build Cunaxa at (23, 23) Pop hut: 50g.

    Interturn: Roman government overthrown. Romans and Carths declare war. Vikings still do not move. Carths acquire Masonry.

    350 BC (turn 6) WLTKD in Bokhara again. Land an ele near Tsingato, on mountains. Ask for tribute on Vikings: They declare WAR! (ha, made a fortress when the settler was stranded) Hopefully that will clear the way. Move units near Zimbabwé: I’ll try to conquer it the normal way. Tabriz fleet lands near Naples and heads for Rome. It meets the Ele just built in Naples, which steps near a Carth chariot.

    Interturn: Barb trireme near Karakorum... roman dip spotted near Naples. Viking warrior suicides on settler: vet. 2 more moves near. Alliance activated: Spain declares war on Vikings. My ele on mountain gets killed by unknown Chinese unit... should have moved that piker the turn before.

    325 BC (turn 7) Expel roman dip. Use a warrior and a settler to block shoreline near Kar. Oh... not completely blocked, forgot a square! Fortunate we don’t have Chivalry. Rush an ele in Samarkand. A lot of units in Tsingato: bribing is tempting... need 357g, have 244. Attack Zimbabwé: 3 barb archers are killed by 2 of my archers and a horsemen. None is vet. Build Cremona at (25, 39) Build Cannae at (46, 28) Vikings do not want to talk. Carths: No tribute. Build Capoue at (36, 16) Spain: No gifts.

    Interturn: 2 viking warriors kill themselves attacking settler, archer moves in. That’s more ish... barb archer kills my archer, ZImbabwé still undefended.

    300 BC (turn 8) Civil disorder in Karakorum because of the militia moved in to protect the capital. Storm Zimbabwé: 0g plundered. Horsemen kills a barb archer near Zimbabwé. Still another one however, and Zim is only size 1... Not sure what to do... Try to attack with Vet archer at 2/3 strength: He dies, but barb archer is weakened at more or less the same level than horsemen. It’s a (very) longshot. Vikings do not want to talk again. Ele kills Barb legions near Karakorum. Build Turin at (10, 50) as an outpost against Carths. Settler and Chariot stack are blocking the way to Rome: I decide to trust that they will not attack... for now. Build Gênes at (57, 35) Spanish: They demand Myscitism. I say no, alliance holds. Looking back at it, I got lucky because I did that a turn early.

    Interturn: Barbs kill my horsemen and raze Zimbabwé. Another full health barb appears: uh-oh. Viking archer killed by my settler, legion is next. I don’t think my settler will survive another round... in the low yellow. Unknown Chinese unit dies attacking my fortified piker on a mountain (providing cover for my dip)

    275 BC: (turn 9) Pop hut: BARBS!!!! (24, 30) 7 horsemen and a legion. CRAP. Build Crète at (7, 47) Build Vérone at (42, 34) Vikings do not want to talk. Romans: No tribute. Discover town of Leptis Parva at (40, 56) Now I’ve got no choice: I have to sneak attack. Hopefully they won’t disrupt my outposts. I don’t get war from the diplomatic way, so here we go... Kill Carth horse near Leptis Parva: vet. Rep Questionable. Kill a Carth Chariot in Leptis Parva: city razed.

    Interturn: Settler dies to barbs. Some move west, some move south. Near some cities... guess we’ll have to pay tribute. Romans start GL. Settler dies to Viking legion. Chinese archer attacks piker and dies: piker vet. Chinese government overthrown. (probably republic)

    250 BC (turn 10) China is a republic. Bribe Tsingato for 360g: plunder 37 and Republic. Get 2 archers and a barracks, along with 2 citizens. Build Salamis at (58, 22) Spanish: They ask for Myscitism, I say no. Alliance cancelled. Move some units to protect border.

    I think that when we get rid of the barbs (will leave that to the next player... mwahahahaha) our main priority should be to send another fleet to the Vikings. Our settler died to Viking troops, 2 eles will not be enough. However, we also have to deal with the Spanish: I recommend a quick strike against Toledo with eles (or if there is no space to land attacking units, a dip, altough this is costly and we are not high on gold right now) and then afterwards move out against the Vikes. (first target should be uppsala IMO)

    Canton built walls: this is very bad. best option, for me. is to blow up walls in Beijing when we have enough troops in position. I suspect they have vets inside, so attacking head-on is not an option, especially considering we do not have Mono. When Bei is down, bribe Canton.

    Rome: We have 3 ellies heading towards Rome. If we act fast enough, these ellies may be in China in time for the attack on Beijing. But we will have to be quick. I'm thinking going Rome-Véies-Cumae, and then heading for Beijing. I'd leave Antium to fall to rb'd eles from Rome or maybe a dip.

    Spain: After Toledo falls, I recommend to live and let them live. We have other priorities for now, not to mention that both of their cities are on rivers. For the same reason, after taking TOledo, make peace: if Madrid builds walls, we're screwed.

    Carthage: We have 2 outpost cities, but war came too early. We do not have a lot of gold floating around right now, so production of eles could be delayed. However, I think we can focus on them and the Vikings, since I think we need to wait for the Rome eles to attempt an attack on Beijing with dips (that leaves a break of a few turns to rush eles as needed) When we attack, we need to build up a large force to take Carthage as the city is on river. They could build walls, as they have learned Masonry recently. If that happens... we're in trouble.

    Barbs: An ele is there to wipe out the remnants of the Zimbabwé barb force. However, there are barbs SE of Ulundi and N of Cremona: No idea how we can contain them. I think tribute is the safest option (unless we can afford to lose some cities to barbs... EXCEPT shangtu, as it supports a trireme used against the Carths. Turin can build another, but...)

    I also recommend to ignore all remaining wonders. We need eles and gold, not LH or Sun Tzu. If we need vets, we should simply rush barracks or kill anything that ventures in the fields.

    Good luck to the next player... I think he'll need it!
     

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  11. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    RCC for Jokemaster's: You made some progress in a few arenas, but this was a very bad turnset wrt the Vikings, and relatively slow wrt the other 4 civs. I read over your log, but didn't really analyze it very carefully (so some comments below may be a little off - if so, sorry).

    1) Vikings: Demanding tribute at a time of weakness was a fundamental mistake, which lost us a fragile chance for a Viking outpost. I see that you sent back-up of 2 ellies, but that is almost certainly inadequate to conquer. Better would've been at least one settler or dip, to allow us some chance for an outpost there. Or 2 flots, with 4 ellies would be OK.

    I played the turnset differently. I took a chance and demanded tribute from the Viks in 500BC (before the settler was so vulnerable) and got 200g. After that, I was super-nice to them. I had trouble liek yours - the settler was blocked by Viking warriors, etc. I gave them techs until they were Cordial, and built an anemic city on glacier near a whale. I RB'd a warrior asap, fortified it, and insisted on withdrawal, which worked. Now the outpost is fairly safe and is building crusaders. I sent back-up of ellie + settler, planning for a better outpost nearer the capital. Two outposts can probably support a campaign.

    2) Carths: I didn't notice any real mistakes in your log, but maybe you didn't push as hard and fast as possible. In 250BC, had an outpost 15,55 near Carthage, with 2 ellies arriving by boat. I also had more cities on the western coast ready to send more forces southwards if needed (but must admit I had some good hut luck in that region). I did not ask for tribute from Carth.

    3) Romans: You have 3 ellies approaching Rome, which isn't bad, and is arguably ahead of my Roman campaign. But 3 units is pretty minimal as an attacking force, highly dependent on good luck, and I don't see a back-up plan. I built a port on lake 41, and am RBing a boat to carry approx 4-5 ellies to Rome (some not built yet). I got 50g from Rome as tribute and was surprised that they later declared war. But this is not bad since the Mongols are not exposed there.

    4) Chinese: No major complaints here. The road from Tsingtao is a better route to Beijing than Canton, even if it hadn't built walls. However, you don't have much force in the area. I see you are building ellies rather than dips, so I guess you plan to attack the city walls ? I slightly prefer dips, but don't really object to this.

    In my 250BC save, we are about ready to attack Beijing (2 dips, approx 4 ellies, etc). I'd probably build 1-2 more dips first, to be sure of taking down the walls, and then China is history. I may be ahead here because of extra tribute, or because I didn't really go for much more ICS (no more canal cities such as Genes or Salamis) and this is partly a matter of taste. Also, your boat at 72,38 carrying one ellie looks planless to me. The ellie should be aiming for Beijing and can get there faster thru Tsingtao. I did not contact the Chinese, but was slightly tempted to solicit gold for a cease fire, since this campaign seems to moving fairly fast, and we have time to get back to war.

    5) Spain: I got 100g from them while allied and eventually they broke off the alliance (good!). They sneaked soon and we traded blows in the mts, but it was never really dangerous. I didn't put much effort into them, since they should be easy to defeat later, but I did plan a flot for an outpost, at least.

    I moved most of the sleeping warriors towards our frontiers to explore, and to our guard our borders. I lost quite a few to a barb archer near Alleppo and to the Spanish, but won a few battles too. That seemed OK, but disbanding would also be OK. I moved quite a few workers in 500BC onto forests - that is the usual idea in cities above size 1. I got republic from Tsingtao, switched to Phil, got that and monotheism soon afterwards, switched to Seaf.

    NEXT: Well, I don't envy the next guy. We need to make a plan out of almost nothing vs the Viks. I guess we need another flot, but could gamble on taking some coastal city with just 2 ellies (similar to Shanghai). We need some defense against the barbs near Khorasan. We might get tribute from Spain (or via temporary cease fires with China or Carth ?).

    The Vik and Carth campaigns look slowest to me now, so those are where most RB money and effort should go. We can slowly re-organize vs the Romans and Chinese (eg send more troops, but don't RB TOO much there). We could start plans vs Madrid, though that doesn't seem urgent yet. I have no strong opinions about WoWs such as LH or SunTzu at this point... probably not really needed.

    Do not play from my save !! Use Jokemaster's above !!
     

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  12. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    That's what I'd recommend. Attacking them right now is a bit risky, since they had a lot of units outside of their cities when they swapped maps with me, so I'd hold off until we have 4 ellies. (not to mention that they are the agressive expansionist type, while China is civilized, so they are likely to have more city defences) Meanwhile, we could make some hit and run raids on the field (probably against Hladir, as it is not connected to the Vik roadnet, so defences are probably weaker... not to mention that city is newer) HOWEVER, I just noticed while writing those lines that Trondheim is defended by only warrior by clicking on location of the city. If lucky... but that is a huge ????? so don't count on it for a strategy. Even if the Vikes are building Colossus in that city, which means no city-built reinforcements. Once again, Vikes should be number 1 priority, with maybe a 3rd flotilla heading there, even if it is a bit overkill, but safe (rush boat in Aleppo, build ele at Nishapur, with no rushes needed, and in Kashgar, which could rush 4s to save a turn. We would end up with 4 eles fairly close to each other, arriving at Uppsala at 100 AD approx. Also, a vet ele will be built next turn in Bokhara. Can board (31, 13) boat to attack Toledo and later, the Vikings (I think that the eles will have healed up when the trip will be done, also arrival in Vikingland at 100AD ish)

    I was not sure if building a city on glacier with whale where you built (6 squares away, would take 4-5 turns to get there with a cru/dip) was close enough to Viking capital. I did get some good tribute from them at first (200g) but that was straight after updating maps. Guess I'll know better next time...

    I think we won't have problems with the Romans, because 2 of our 3 eles are vets. They will need to spend a turn or two sleeping to get back to full health however (they have taken slight damage from the Carth clash)

    For China, I was thinking ''build a few more ellies before switching to dips'' I'm not sure if the Rome invasion force will make it to China in one piece (even if I have high hopes for that) If that happens, we'll only need some dips. Low priority.

    Carths: 2 outpost cities, building eles, a trireme, and a dip heading for outposts. Would be good enough if we would not have barbs to deal with. But we still need reinforcements. I think Shangtu should build another boat (or have the original Shangtu boat head home to pick up the units that were busy fighting Barbs, but that could delay shipping of units in Carthage, even if we won't be able to attack anyway. That way, the new troops, if they have not died fighting Barbs, should arrive at 200 AD ish having healed from sleeping aboard the boat)Also rush lots of eles at our outposts. (I would prefer 5-6 of them AT LEAST, 7-8 is better if we want to finish quicker)

    Spanish: It is maybe a good idea to approach them by the backdoor by building an outpost at (55, 19) from Salamis and rushing eles/crusaders/dips there when we're sure about the other civs. Terrain is way less rugged out there. Great defence, but poor production.

    Boat at (72, 38) was looking for huts to pop so I'd maybe get some gold to speed up the bribe of Tsingato. Ended up fruitless.

    Barbs: My idea is to switch Issos production to Horsemen and gamble that it can defeat the last archer. If that fails, build a horsemen (or rush an ele) in Ulundi. Our Ulundi ele should kill the wounded barb archer) and we would have the Ulundi ele go back to Khorasan in 3 turns with 2/3 strength to attack the barb horsemen that would be near the city. Not sure if he'd have enough health to hold them off for long, but would provide us with enough time to build up defences (read: ele, as they could be used later against the Carths) (Also, the turn estimate is if our ele kills the barb archer, if not would take 2 turns but leave Ulundi in danger) Meanwhile, rush a piker in Cremona and fortify on mountains.


    Order of priority:
    1: Vikings
    2: Barbs (should sink to number 6 in a few turns)
    3: Carths (after the first 5ish turns, spend the most gold there)
    4: Spanish (only take Toledo)
    5: Romans (I think we have enough troops to take Rome. rb something to take care of Antium as the ellies should gun for Beijing IMO and not head there)
    6: China (won't be able to do anything when the Bei elephants are still stomping Rome, so don't rush those dips quite yet)
     
  13. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    I don't see any quick uses for the 2 ellies on the current flot, so they may have to wait a while for a 2nd flot. If Trondheim has only one defender, and is near coastal grass/plains [not sure bc I switched pc's] let's go for that asap. The odds are pretty good that our 1st ellie wins, and empties the city for the second.


    I don't remember being in this situation before [lone settler attacking from the pole], so I'm relying on general principles -

    * even a bad outpost can be useful, for RBing 1-2 emergency attackers or a boat. Also, "withdrawing troops" can be very painful without one.

    * demand tribute at almost all times, EXCEPT in times of weakness, such as planting an outpost.

    No big argument here, but approaching by land is always risky .... our vets could be clobbered by a hidden horseman or dip, or blocked by a pikeman fortified on a
    hill, etc.
    You plan to attack Rome and move on to China ? I think China should be easier / faster than Rome. Also, that we'll need dips before we need ellies [assuming you agree about removing the walls]. But I agree this arena is not urgent.

    [running out of time...] I think we have outpost cities closer than Shangtu which can support this attack.

    [/QUOTE]
    This seems about right, but I have a bit less confidence in the attack on Rome. Also, wrt Spain, maybe we should focus on the capital. Then bribe Toledo. And not sure China sb last.... well, gotta go.... good luck.
     
  14. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    Said outpost cities are Crète and Turin.

    True, especially since our eles expelled a roman dip during my turns. However, it seems that with the AI, the same is possible (bribing) with any unit... And with that being said, remember we are at peace with the Romans. I doubt they will sneak, because they are not the militaristic type.

    For Toledo, I'd attack, thinking about it again, with 3 eles: 2 to raze the city, one to kill the stack of Spanish units that would result. We may rush an ele next turn in Kabul to hit the 3 eles mark. To achieve this, we may have to disband a few warriors in Kabul. (and with that being said, it is apparently defended by a settler, while Madrid is by a chariot... is that trick reliable?)

    I was wanting to save some ele-rushing gold and spend it elsewhere, such as against the Carths and the Spanish. The Carth campaign will not get in motion for a while anyway: My thinking was that if we beat the Chinese at 1 AD and the Carths at 300 AD to end the game (hypothetical date) it is worse than beating them both at 275 AD. No waste is allowed in a lean EC game.

    Trondheim does have a coastal plains square. However, it is well-connected by roads so we will need to defend Trondheim quickly for the counterattack (rush pikes)
     
  15. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    This may be a myth - I don't recall my forces being bribed by non-dip units, or of anyone offering proof that it has happened to them. Sometimes the inter-turn action is hard to follow.

    Well, I don't want to "cry wolf" over the Roman campaign. It may work out just fine, and it is far less worrisome than the Vikings. But in my experience, a lot can go wrong moving attackers over land. I'd give our 3 attackers roughly 2 to 1 odds of success in taking Rome unaided. But you can't expect all 5 campaigns to succeed with just 2 to 1 odds each ... you need to aim for 80% to 90% odds in most campaigns, either by planning slight overkill or having a Plan B.

    I don't understand the question, and still don't have the game in front of me. But I don't recall any reason to focus on Toledo anytime soon. I'd suggest moving towards Madrid at a leisurely pace (but ahead of the Viking pace) using only spare units from the homeland, probably not RB'd ones. Any current homeland units that will fit on current boats should probably go towards the Viks (via Aleppo) or the Carths (via Shangtu).
    These are the correct questions. But IMO the Viks are our weak spot, probably our last conquest, so they deserve priority RBs. The Spanish can probably be crushed whenever we need to, simply because they are nearby [but I'd still prefer a Madrid outpost soon]. The Chinese are already weakened, but we should bring down the Beij walls (eg with 3 dips + 1 ellie vs obstacles) even before gathering many ellies there [also, the odds of getting the walls down in 3 tries goes down with time, as the city builds barracks, etc]. We can RB near Carth as needed, at least enough to keep pace with our Vik campaign. I'm not sure whether to RB back-ups for Rome; if funds are tight, it may be best to just cross our fingers. It'd be hard to get new units there quickly anyway.

    I'm guessing we'll be taking out 3-4 capitals in the next 10 turns. If/when the next player feels that victory vs the capitals is fairly certain, they can shift some production to dips, planning to bribe away most of the other cities. Also, they can make some plans wrt dip transportation (such as boats for Canton and other 'distant' cities).

    Since bribing requires gold, we could use some pro-active econo-planning. We can expect modest new incomes from taxes/growth, tribute and conquests. Might consider looking for more huts or sending demanded vans to Carthage (as long these plans can bear fruit within approx 20 turns). If our homeland has nothing better to do [unlikely to happen soon] its cities might build barracks for disbanding later.

    One typical problem in the endgame is new AI cities, not on our maps. If we're at peace with an AI, maybe trade maps once in a while, and watch out for any new cities in the F3 info screen, or in "nearest city" info. If we ever get seaf, a few explorers are useful for this problem.
     
  16. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    In Peaster's response to my last turnset, he made a comment about being much more successful with demanding tribute than I was. Most of my experience demanding tribute has been for goading the AI into declaring war, rather than actually expecting to get anything, so my reason for not demanding tribute immediately was because I didn't want to sour relations with a nation that we might want to have good relations with for a little while. Peaster's much greater experience in this area must lead him to believe there is little risk of serious consequences for demanding tribute immediately.

    As I indicated, I did try demanding tribute a little later, but was rebuffed by all those I tried other than the Spanish. Peaster's immediate success reminds me of an observation made by OCC and Deity Plus Level players about alliance gifts: you can usually get a gift immediately, but then there is a "downtime" of about 8 turns where you can't get anything. Perhaps a similar mechanic exists for demanding tribute.

    Also, my notes about Spanish movements weren't so much out of fear as just wanting to keep track of their units.

    The "trick" of observing the unit in the city square after trading maps to find out what is in the city is reliable (that is, the observed unit will no longer be visible on that square once it moves), but will not tell you if there are also other defenders in the city. So, you can't assume that Madrid is defended only by a chariot, or that the Chariot is the most powerful defender.

    I'm almost certain I experienced this a few years ago while playing a World War II MGE scenario where there were no diplomatic units. However, that only happened once, and I've never experienced it in classic playing a regular game.

    Regarding the efforts to take out Beijing, there is another option: get mathematics and use catapults. Beijing has a roaded hill beside the city; a pre-charged settler could build a fort on the hill, effectively protecting our forces outside the city. Such a fort would probably draw most attention from the Chinese, limiting their ability to make other attacks.

    Doing it this way has several advantages over using diplomats to destroy the walls. Vet catapults will have roughly a 50-50 chance against vet defenders, so some of the catapults would survive and could be used to attack Canton, and, because the catapults would destroy some (if not all) units, fewer elephants would be needed for the attack. If Beijing has other structures (it's size 8, republic, and has only one unhappy citizen, so I strongly suspect it has a temple-but not mysticism- and a colosseum), it increases the number of diplomats that have to be used, but not the number of catapults (also, if the city has no barracks Vet Catapults will have much better odds against the rookie defenders). Taking the city without destroying all the improvements might also leave us one or two to sell.

    There are some large cons to using catapults, however. We don't have mathematics, and, unless the vikings get it soon, we'd have to sacrifice going for philosophy->monotheism. Also, amassing roughly 4 vet catapults in the area is no small challenge, while diplomats and elephants move more and could be built anywhere. Besides, if we get Monotheism, we can build vet crusaders which are almost as strong as vet catapults.

    I think the fact that we don't have mathematics makes this plan inferior to other possibilities, but if we get math from a hut soon, I'm not sure which I'd prefer.
     
  17. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    http://www.sethos.gmxhome.de/English/BookOfDiplomacy/tributes.html
    There is. 8 turns after concluding peace.
    The page says that ''There is also a 16 turn cycle: the AI will pay 50% less tribute between turn 8 and turn 15 since peace was concluded.''

    My reasoning was to defend our frontiers. Toledo is pretty much Spain's outpost against us. I'm pretty sure Spain has a lot of units in and near Toledo (remember all units were transfered there when the alliance was cancelled) My thinking was to inflict quick and decisive damage to the Spanish military so they would not be able to do anything to threaten our homeland. They did sneak in Peaster's game: I suspect that if action is not taken now, that the same will happen with our game. Units from Séville would take quite a while to get to our (new) frontiers if that happens, due to the rugged land. I don't think they would consider our homeland a ''threat'' if that happens.


    Same here, it only happened when I was playing MGE (5-10 times) But with that being said, I played MGE way longer than I currently play classic.
     
  18. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    I must admit I have never studied the game mechanics of tribute, except for scanning an old thread by zenon [maybe this is jokemaster's link...must check] and I don't feel there is much skill to it. In general, I prefer to be at war with the AI's [except in certain times of weakness, such as out-posting] so I demand tribute quite often. I accept cease fires only IF the AI will pay nicely for it. By see-sawing back and forth from war to cease-fire, I can often wipe-out the AI treasuries long before the real attack begins. This would not apply to the Carth's of course, being on a different land mass. It might work well with the Chinese, but in my play here, they didn't seem very interested in a cease fire.

    OK. I suggested "ignoring them", in the sense that we shouldn't expend many new resources on them until the final stages of the game. There was, and still is, little danger that they will invade us and cause real problems. A few warriors fortified on hills should block most attacks, or at least warn us if the Spanish have any hard-hitters nearby, such as ellies or catapults.

    Yes, they did sneak during my comparison play. I shouldn't give details, but will say that they attacked with sub-human intelligence, as you'd expect, and probably caused more harm to themselves than the Mongols. We have advantages in terrain, roads, intel, and [long-term] muscle... we just need normal caution. I'd feel a bit safer with at least one dip or ellie hanging out in the homeland, but for now that has lower priority than 1-2 Vik flots.

    Ah! Now I get it. But there IS a trick to count the units in the city. Use your mouse to shrink that window, the one that displays the chariot icon. When small enough, the icon is replaced by a phrase such as "two other units". In this example, the "two" includes the chariot. We already used this at Shanghai, and may use it at Trondheim.

    Hmmm ... if we had math, it might be worth a try. But in general, ellies are much better than cats, because of their faster movement; so that a) they rarely need to defend, and b) they can move on to another arena afterwards. Their lower attack factor can often be mollified by vet status, and it usually doesn't matter anyway [except vs walls].

    My preference [especially lately] is to send approx 3-4 dips vs the walls. Usually, you lose 2-3 dips this way [a cost similar to the defender's cost of making the wall], but you get a quick and safe attack. And any extra dips / ellies can often be re-used elsewhere. I think [but am not quite sure] that other methods cost more on average.

    The dip method is pretty easy to execute. In my 250BC save, we are almost ready to attack Beijing - only needing 1-2 more dips. In jokemaster's 250BC save, the nearby cities have over 30 shields or barracks (IIRC) so that it's probably more efficient to make ellies first and dips later. Slower, but OK. I forget - there may be archers/etc nearby which we could disband to speed things up.

    Anyway - I'm trying to help keep people stay focused on the important stuff. Right now, that's the Vik campaign. IIRC, there's a wandering boat near Allepo that should grab an ellie/etc ASAP and head west! It should have done so 5 turns ago!

    I doubt any other campaigns will be slower, but if we get lucky at Trondheim, it could happen... I'm a little concerned about Rome, and delays getting to the scattered Roman provinces. Probably not urgent yet, but it wouldn't hurt to make rough plans soon to get dips/etc in there. I'm hoping the Carthaginians will be straightforward because of better sea access and better outposts.
     
  19. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    More RCC for jokemaster... I just noticed your 360g bribe of Tsingtao in 250BC - much gold, bad deal. It is usually better not to bribe cities until the capital is down, or until our troops have reduced them to inexpensive size-1's. We really could have used that gold to defend vs the barbs, or deal with the Viking problem.

    Also, the Chinese are one of our lowest priorities. I liked the idea of getting to Beijing thru Tsingtao, but I did it mainly with ellies. Much cheaper, almost as fast.
     
  20. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I tried to attack Tsingato with 2 ellies, but that failed as one got clobbered on mountains and the other had to retreat. (altough I definitely did not waited long enough to attack) The geography of the map prevented a direct attack straight from the boat, altough it is clear to me that my turnset was definitely not my best.

    I'd switch Nanking from ellie to dip first thing in the morning however.



    That would be VERY useful! Would say that right now, Madrid has 3 units, Toledo has 7 (!) and that Trondheim has 2. For Trondheim, not 100% odds for success, but still good. Also, Hladir is defended by lone Phalanx (all of these statements using Peaster's trick) so that is a possibility too (I would actually prefer attacking Hladir, provided it does not build any additional unit, because it is not connected to the Vik road network, rendering any Vik counterattacks difficult if not impossible (while we can still move troops to next target by boat) Also, that would cause the Vikings to keep wasting shields on the Colossus, because Trondheim would be left alone. Distance to travel to target by boat is the same (6 turns) and the units will probably have fully healed while they wait for the 2 other flotillas to arrive, at 100 AD or so.

    Rome is defended by 2 units, Canton by Phalanx behind walls. Véies and Cumae both defended by lone defender.

    EDIT: Just noticed, while checking the next tech number, that Philosophy will not be available for research next turn again! There is no way we can avoid that right now: However, if we choose Math next turn (will be available) we can wait until the Vikings develop Math (they are currently researching that) and then conquer one of their cities (e.g. Hladir) and getting Math, allowing us to choose Phil, then Mono as the free tech. They have been researching Math for close to 20 turns now (they started to do so at 700 BC, almost 20 turns from now) so I'm pretty confident that they will soon discover that. I'm pretty sure that the VIkings' key civ are the Carthaginians, so we could maybe try to gift some techs to the Carths to speed up Vik research. If we accumulate too much beakers before the Viks discover Math, we might set luxuries to 30% and science at 0% in order to prevent a discovery until we can research Philosophy.
     

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