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The more units you have, the more hammer they cost.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Tecibbar, Oct 8, 2009.

  1. Tecibbar

    Tecibbar unliving

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    While looking at xml, I noticed in CIV4UnitClassInfos.xml
    <iInstanceCostModifier>0</iInstanceCostModifier>

    if it is not 0, say 5. then if you have 20 workers. then another worker will cost 20*5=100% more, which in normal speed would be 120 hammers.

    I think that would force a player to diversify his army, leading to more strategy.
     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Actually by making the choice of one unit type vs many more obvious you are reducing the need for strategic consideration, not adding it.
     
  3. VirginiaRounder

    VirginiaRounder Warlord

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    Building just one type of unit is definitely a bad idea, as many units have a natural counter. Any smart opponent will beat you pretty easily with the proper counter units and promotions.

    However, there's really nothing undesirable about having lots of workers, as long as there are improvements that can be made.
     
  4. TheLazyHase

    TheLazyHase King

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    It may be useful for some scenario.

    For example, you could put the iron unit to cost more if you have a lot of them, because making an army with iron weapon is much more difficult than having few elite warrior with them. Or use it for knight, simply because recruiting noble may be much more difficult once you have take most of them. This may allow to have a select few elite unit without an hardcoded limit.

    But in vanilla civIV, I can't find good reason for this. A lot of real-life battle had been fought between huge standardized army.
     
  5. Tecibbar

    Tecibbar unliving

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    well, for most war games
    ancient = axe rush
    classic=sword + cat
    medi=mace + treb or knight + spy
    industrial=rifle+ cannon or cavalry

    In most games,a player just build one or two unit types,and a couple counter to protect the SOD.
    There need more incentives to diversify
     
  6. Patak

    Patak Warlord

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    A simple question: are the workers considered to be military units (so they are calculated for the upkeep) or they are just units which cost no upkeep?
     
  7. Xellos-_^

    Xellos-_^ Prince

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    i am not sure if the count as military units but they cost upkeep, i am pretty sure of that.
     
  8. none

    none si vis pacem para bellum

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    Same here.
     
  9. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    There ARE incentives to difersify. You are highlighting rookie play. Let's point out why EACH of your canned stacks w/o diversity will fail and fail badly without more units in them:

    ancient = axe rush: Chariots. Hope you built spears or you're toast. (by the way, the chariot rush is just as strong if not stronger than axes in ancient times). There are only 5 ancient units anyway: warriors, archers, spears, axes, and chariots. Everything else is technically classical or later.

    classic=sword + cat: Not surprisingly, horse archers own the hell out of this (shock puts them past swords, and they flank the catapults). Again, you'll need spears. Also, for melee-heavy garrisons axes are helpful to have along.

    An alternative in the classical period on offense is MASS horse archers.


    medi=mace + treb or knight + spy: Treb+mace loses to just a bunch of crossbows, and also to knights. Knights alone obviously can lose to pikes. Generally in medieval times you want better stack defense, although if you're not using knights it will trebs that strike the cities.


    industrial=rifle+ cannon or cavalry: If I'm going to fight in the industrial era, I'm going to use infantry. That aside, the renaissance also allows musket+cannon or massed cuirassers/cavalry. Not sure how much more diversity you want here, other than possibly buffing grenadiers since they kind of suck.

    I could go on but I think you get the point.

    Granted, what you posted will work for most difficulties against the computer. On very high difficulties or against halfway competent human beings, you better diversify or you're screwed. Well, there are other approaches in MP as well since the humans don't have bonuses to stack garrison in every city...
     
  10. Tecibbar

    Tecibbar unliving

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    I did say a couple counter in my previous post.

    I never have more than 2 spear in axe rush SOD. My counter units seldom exceed 15% of my SOD. AI is just not smart enough to counter attack properly,especially if my SOD is big enough. And that's in immortal.

    You are right about MP, but most people only play single

    About workers. They don't count as Military. If workers cost increment, one will think twice about if they need another worker. And useless Sophia Hago and serfdom will be more useful.
     
  11. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    So, please add "against the current non-modded AI" everytime you say something in the line you are arguing, for sake of clarity. For a quick example, your classic axe rush would be in ashes if Firaxis released a new AI code making them to spam chariot + axes in defense( and use them properly ) instead of simply piling archers in cities.

    @ TMIT

    No love for phants ? :p They are technically classical units :D And i wonder what is up with the lack of love for early Artilery + airships + something ( especially when playing Spain ). Artilery can only be flanked by gunships and has suficient strenght to defend themselfes a lot of times ...
     
  12. Tecibbar

    Tecibbar unliving

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    What modded AI do you use? Does HOF use modded AI? "If Firaxis released a new AI code making them to spam chariot + axes in defense" is not likely gonna happen, since the game(BTS) is 2 years old, yet no patch significantly improves AI.

    PS, this discussion is off topic.
     
  13. TheLazyHase

    TheLazyHase King

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    3.19 have improved the AI, no ?
     
  14. Tecibbar

    Tecibbar unliving

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    I didn't notice the difference.

    I mod my game to give worker and spy 20% increment. I think AI can handle that. I noticed way less spy actions in my land.
     
  15. mechaerik

    mechaerik Tuturuu!

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    3.19 doesn't improve the AI.


    Increasing the cost for military units will do some major damage to the AI on higher levels, where they field massive superstacks.

    Increasing the cost of more workers could do severe damage to infrastructure overall.
     
  16. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Infantry/Arty/Anti-Tank is one of my favorite stacks, you know that. I didn't list a true industrial SoD at all, merely pointing out that he was probably referring to renaissance ;).

    I do like elephants but they're rare and an obvious choice if you have them and want classical war...for that reason they didn't occur to me to mention specifically. They are indeed hard to deal with but if there's one thing some game spy action has taught me it's not to get too cocky - it's also very easy to lose to things like woods II forces by surprise early on or guerrilla choking (that won't be the final nail, but it does enough damage).

    I do throw airships into the lineup lately (LHC Zara take 2, which I've not yet posted, features some use of them!) and with arty you already have access to them. Very good to take the edge off defenders in their era since you won't lose many.
     

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