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The most powerful "god"

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by KamikazeFTW, May 10, 2011.

  1. KamikazeFTW

    KamikazeFTW Chieftain

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    My guess is that Agares is the most powerful of the angels.
    The only angel that I think could be even more powerful (or on par) with Agares would be Ceriwden. In short, who's the most powerful angel?

    (ps probably shouldn't write this when I'm half-asleep lol)
     
  2. Dracosolon

    Dracosolon Chieftain

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    I can't find the post, but I recall Kael saying that this question is essentially meaningless. What is stronger, the forest, or the fire that burn it? But yes, if there were one, it would probably be Agares.

    And the angel bastard never created an angel on is own so he must be the only god to never lost power in the process, making him even more powerful in comparaison.

    The weakest one, however, is Cernunnos, who wasn't directly created by the One.
     
  3. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

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    I'd say Ceridwen. She strikes me as a leader, not a follower as she's portrayed in the official history of Erebus. I'd go so far as to say that Agares is merely a figurehead for the rebellion.
     
  4. apenpaap

    apenpaap Tsar of all the Internets

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    I agree with deanej that it's probably Ceridwen. Not neccesarily in ability, but definitely in terms of influence. It is heavily hinted that she is the actual leader of the evil godsand that she may have been the one who made Agares fall originally.
     
  5. A Moon

    A Moon The "A" is silent

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    Where was that hinted again? Or is it a in a scenario I haven't got round to finishing yet?
     
  6. apenpaap

    apenpaap Tsar of all the Internets

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    I can't name any actual quotes, but I remember it being strongly hinted in the pedia and there's probably some in the bit about the hells that Kael posted several years ago too. I think MC has talked about it on several occasions too.
     
  7. IronClaymore

    IronClaymore Chieftain

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    With regards to physical strength, I would actually be inclined to say Cernunnos, despite him being the only god not created directly by The One. Remember, when his son was kidnapped, he went to Agares' vault, and he was simultaneously: without a god's ara, in a location as far removed from nature as could possibly be imagined, in the very home of his enemy, without access to magic, had just been incapacitated for half a day by deific power on a mountainside, and totally inexperienced in combat.

    And he was still able to move a planet when he rammed Agares.

    Keep that in mind: he moved. An entire. Planet. As an engineer, I can say that this is quite a lot of momentum we're talking about here.

    And now he's an actual god. I'm pretty sure it's not the godslayer that's keeping Agares out of Erebus, it's fear.

    (For all the D&D fans out there, remember; it's not quite the divine rank that determines challenge rating, it's the ability to roll a bucket of dice when you charge an enemy.)
     
  8. LockerStalker

    LockerStalker Chieftain

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    Compare Auric Ascended (Strength 60) to Brigit the Shining (Strength 11), Basium (Strength 11), Hyborem (Strength 9).

    And just because Cernunnos can move a planet, doesn't mean the Angels couldn't either.

    Also:
     
  9. Great Overlord

    Great Overlord Chieftain

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    Well. besides being the actual leader of the evil gods-I'm quite sure it has been said here- remember what Ceridwen's power is- interdimensional connections, which ARE DESCRIBED to include bringing things from other worlds- yes, not simply the other Vaults, but according to her Vault's description from OTHER UNIVERSES. I think that would make her, at least potentially the most powerful of the gods.
    The weakest would be Nemed, because he gave up all his powers, but still is immortal- and contrary to the extremly strong magician Os-Gabella, he is unable to do anything even physically as he is imprisoned and experimented on by her.
     
  10. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The greatest physical strength almost certainly belongs to Aeron, the god of physical strength (among other things, like pride, cold calculating hatred, murder, and rape).

    Cernunnos did not move a planet, he did something arguably more impressive; he moved an infinite plane. Still, Kael has described him as the weakest of the gods because he lacks a true divine spark.

    Nemed is of course weaker, but he is also no longer a god, so he shouldn't really count. The gods have tremendous respect for Nemed, yet don't really see the immortal human a their brother anymore. They instead consider the risen Sucellus to be Nemed reborn. This is because most of them have great trouble distinguishing between an individual and his position in respect to a precept, which is a sign of Ceridwen's influence among them. Nantosuelta may well be the only member of the 21 who looks past the precepts and focuses on the individual souls of her brethren. She would consider Sucellus to be still just Sucellus, her beloved.
     
  11. SergiuSS

    SergiuSS Chieftain

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    I think the title must go to Mammon, he has the most worshipers and the biggest army of demos he invaded the vaults of 2 gods one of witch is under Hastur's control. Aldo he lacks foresight he is the mostlikely to act to gain something, be it good, neutral or evil god

    Agares is the god of entropy his nature is the same as the sphere he represents that is why he could not create his own angel, he could only make a copy of a fallen one, same for the other gods they resemble whit the sphere they represent and are limited in there action by it.
     
  12. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

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    He could create his own, he didn't because he stopped creating altogether.

    Mammon has only invaded one gods, the other (Aerons) is under invasion by a mage student of Kylorin (whose name escapes me).
    Hastur is by no means in control of Danalins vault.
     
  13. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Entropy in Erebus is really Despair. Agares stole the Gems of Creation and certain still has access to infinite mana resources through them. He can create at least as well as any of The Twenty One. He has however despaired of his ancient hope of surpassing the creations of The One, and out of spite refuses to make anything new.


    In the D&D Campaigns on which FfH2 was based, the forces of Mammon had invaded the Vault of Oghma. In FfH2, Mammon's archangel Hastur has definitely invaded the Vault of Danalin. In neither case were Mammon's forces enough to conquer the vault entirely, but they captured enough that the defending god and his angels were too bus putting up a defense to be able to do much in Erebus.

    It is not clearly stated whether the invasion of Danalin's vault is supposed to be instead of or in addition to the invasion of Oghma's vault. There is no definitive proof that Oghma's vault is still under siege, but there are some implications. For example, the Bestiary makes it clear that many Gowlers (also called "past men," these are angels that can exist only within memories, and can change memories well enough that many think they can change the past itself) have fallen into Mammon's domain.

    Of course, betraying one's creator for another god does not require your vault be invaded. There is a group of Dwarves, called the Duergar, who were banished by the Khazad because they worshiped Mammon, being greedy for unearned riches rather than valuing the hard work that creates such rewards. There are also redcaps, a smaller group of brutal dwarves who venerate Aeron.


    Aeron's Vault has never been invaded. His is the great academy of hell, the final level of the great machine that one must pass before becoming a Demon Lord and being allowed to found a kingdom in the ruins of Nyx or join the ranks of a favorite evil god's elite troops.


    Laroth (history's most powerful Archmage of Spirit, who was a student of Kylorin and the head of his school of Spirit magic) has established a kingdom for himself within the Netherworld of Arawn. For the most part, he portrays himself as a rebel hero who will give the dead (including those like Auric Ulvin and Ethne the White, whose deaths he arranged and whose souls he bound to his realm through the Nether blade) a chance to live again rather than being trapped in delusions by the God of Death. His ultimate goal is to overthrow Arawn and become God of Death himself. That would not be a good thing. A minority of Arawn's angels have betrayed their god to serve the usurper. He could still be easily crushed if Arawn fought back, but the God of Death refuses to take the threat seriously despite the warnings of his archangel Gyra.


    Laroth entered the Netherworld through the Well of Creation on the Isle of Nemora (which became the Dead Lands once the well was closed) while he was still alive (perhaps because he knew that he was destined for the torments of hell once he died, but could live forever in the land of the unclaimed dead and manipulate his subconscious well enough to make this a paradise). He initially invaded with a mercenary band of elves, under the command of Arak the Erkling. (They was irreligious and loyal to neither the Summer nor Winter Courts, but overall was closer to Svartalfar than Ljosalfar. They also preferred to use the common human language of Patria rather than the noble Elven tongue.) Arak eventually rebelled, and allowed his son Haerlond Gossam to lead the vast majority of his people to escape into the liminal realm of the Shadow Rift (in another Well of Creation found between the Illian and Ljosalfar empires). Arak himself is still a prisoner. It is implied that Laroth let the rest go on purpose. King Haerlond's chief adviser is Waldrun the Necromancer, who is secretly in league with Laroth. Without the Once Elves, the Sidar would never had traded their souls to great archmage through the Waning ritual, nor could Rathus have acquired the Nether Blade.)
     
  14. akatosh

    akatosh Chieftain

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    Are the Sidar the same as the mercenary band of elves, or did they just learn things from the mercenary band of elves?
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The Sidar are not Once Elves, but a group of humans who revered Arawn. Sandalphon was among the first to discover the Once Elf city of Barathrum within the Shadow Rift, and among the first to study in the library there. This library was not especially large, but was of immense value because its volumes were mostly masterpieces published posthumously; they had been written in the lands of the dead and stolen from Laroth's palace when the Once Elves escaped. Among these books was a tome written by Laroth himself, which was filled with instructions for various spells and rituals. Sandalphon made a copy of this book and took it home with him. It was from this copy that the Sidar discovered how to become Shades.


    Many years (perhaps generations) latter, a Shade named Rathus Demora began to suspect that Sandalphon's copy was filled with mistakes. He gained admittance to Barathrum's great library in order to study the original book and make a better copy of it. While there he performed the Waning ritual properly, and managed to not only become invisible but also to disappear completely from the memory of those who had admitted him.


    Rathus entered Barathrum at the same time as a druidess/witch named Talia, and perhaps also a sorceress called Gosea the Dwindling. Gosea stole the Once Elves' most prized possession, a fist-sized lump of jagged grey rock called the Heartstone, which they had stolen from Laroth and taken out of the Netherworld. (Kael implies that this is the heart of Anesidora, the second wife of Nemed and the mother of all mortal races. Whoever possesses her heart can summon her spirit, which manifests as a dark draconic shadow that causes enemies to fall into a deep despair.) The Once Elves don't seem to know about Gosea (perhaps she learned the Waning ritual while there too?), so they use Talia as a scapegoat. Waldrun convinced Haerlond to let him use the taghairm ritual on her, killing her and enslaving her soul so that she would lose the ability to lie to them (or perhaps the ability to say anything but what the Necromancer wishes).


    When Gosea was fleeing the Shadow Rift, she stopped in the Illian village of Brigdarrow. At this time the young Auric Ulvin and his friends Dain and Kirien had gone missing, as they were caring for an injured dog they had found. The Thegn of Brigdarrow suspected Gosea and her guards might be involved, and so had their possessions searched. They took away the Heartstone for a time, but gave it back and let her to once the children had returned. Once she left, she hired 3 clans of goblin mercenaries to destroy the village and kill anyone who might have seen her with this relic. The children were away at the time, as the dog had led them to find the young elf who was its master. When they saw the town was destroyed, they decided to go with the elf, who had been looking for Barathrum. (They had never heard of it, but his map showed that it was the only settlement close enough for them to reach with so little supplies. Brigdarrow was far from the heart of the Illian empire, so the next several closest towns were inhabited by Ljosalfar elves instead of their fellow Illians.) They would have been lost in the Whispering Woods if it were not for Auric, who was able to navigate by mana instead of relying on senses that were confounded by the Whiddershins Curse. (Normally anyone the Once Elves allow to visit would be given a charm to protect them from this confusion.) When Waldrun attacks and captured them, Auric frees an enslaved Sluagh that was set upon them. Waldrun has the children imprisoned for short time. In the jail of Barathrum, Talia gives Auric his first formal magic lesson. Waldrun cannot convince Haerlond that the children are guilty of anything, so he lets them go. Auric visits the library, and learns much that will eventually lead him along the path to godhood. Waldrun convinced Dain to enter the portal to the Netherworld to visit his dead father, knowing that Once Elf law would never let anyone who has seen that world ever pass to the other side of the Shadow Rift again and return to the land of the living. (Dain's entry into the netherworld provides cover for Rathus Denmora, who at the same time slips through the portal unseen. This might be the main reason for Waldrun's actions.) Before he finds his father, he encounters the spirit that Auric had freed. He warns him against staying with the dead, for it is too easy to forget about life. He also warns him of the Taghairm ritual, and bids him to save Talia's life. Dain returns to Barathrum, warns Varn Gossam, and helps break Talia out of jail. Auric channels the sun into the rift and breaks down the veil between Barathrum and Creation, which blinds the Once Elf guardsmen and allows them to escape. (They would not have been able to do this, however, if the guards had not first been distracted by the portal to the Netherworld unexpectedly opening. That was caused by an invisible Rathus, returning with the Netherblade.) Varn sees Lugus in the light, and goes on to join the Malakim and found the Empyrean. The Malakim had always revered the God of Light, but he had not had a priesthood or any formal doctrine since the Calabim exterminated his organized religion over 600 years earlier. Talia stays with Varn and becomes his wife, although years later she cheats on him with Decius and is driven to suicide.
     
  16. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

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    Aeron/Arawn :duh:

    Who's kael (lore-wise)?
     
  17. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    In the D&D campaigns on which FfH was based, Kael Colbane was an elven vampire mage who ventured to the city of Braduk in order to convince Malchavic to teach him what he needed in order to become an archmage.

    Kael Colbane first appeared in the FfH2 mod as a summoner hero of the Ashen Veil religion. This was only in very early versions of the game though. He was gone and the current heroes were in place by version 0.16, when I first discovered FfH2.

    Kael Colbane was also the Svartalfar hero for quite some time, before Alazkan the Assassin replaced him.

    When the Shadow phase of the game was first released, Kael Colbane became the hero of the new Council of Esus reglion. It did not take long, however, for this hero to have its name changed to Gibbon Goetia.



    Last but not least, Kael is the name used by Derek Paxton when he posts on this website. He is the creator of Fall from Heaven. He made FfH1 as a proof of concept, and then attracted other members to his team to help him make FfH2. He remained the lead designer, although Loki and Yvain_the_woodelf were on the design team too. Talchas and Sto joined as programmers, although Kael refused to borrow code wholesale and insisting on re0writing things so that he understood them. I'm not sure if Kael did any of the artwork, which he left up to seZereth, C.Roland, Chalid, AlazkanAssassin, Ploeperpengel, Hexagonian, and Rabbit, White. He did much of the writing, but Wilboman, Corlindale, and especially Nikis-Knight contributed too. He still remained the ultimate authority on the lore.

    (I seemed to understand the lore better than most of the team though, and sometimes remembered things better than Kael himself. I managed to figure out several things Kael had never explicitly revealed, and he occasionally changed the lore when he realized that my suggestions made more sense than what he had planned. Kael once mentioned that he had considered asking me to join the team, but never did so because the team had already signed a non-disclosure agreement with Firaxis pertaining to their work on the Age of Ice campaign for Beyond the Sword. There were secrets in their private forum which they could not shared beyond the existing group, and going back to remove all of them would be too hard.

    Kael did share with me a draft of the Ashes of Brigdarrow, which I don't think he even shared with the FfH2 team. He asked me not to share it. The only person I have let read it in full is my sister, who never posts here, because I thought she would be better at proofreading the spelling and punctuation. I have not shared the full text with anyone else, but I did slip a couple little excerpts of it into the civilopedia of my modmod. Most of the lore I shared in my last couple posts came from this story, or from a private message in which Kael responded to my questions about it. I hope Kael isn't upset that I shared so much.)
     
  18. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

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    Ah cool.

    (Just FTR, I did know who Kael the forum user was/is ;))
     
  19. Diavolo Rosso

    Diavolo Rosso Lord Giggles

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    Here's an interesting thought I had: could Amatheon, the god of fertility and associated with creation mana be the most powerful? When reading the FFH Lore Compendium, in the beginning there was the One and he created...everything. If the One were to have a precept, wouldn't it be creation? And then would that mean that Amatheon is the closest to the One since his precept is creation?
     
  20. akatosh

    akatosh Chieftain

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    Thanks Magister. A couple more questions...

    Who is Magister Cultuum? And, Chalid, Yvain, Loki and Alazkan, were they from the original lore or were they added to the lore because some of the devs used these as forum names?

    Where did the Lizardmen come from? And why are they teamed up with orcs?

    In the canon, does Auric Ulvin actually succeed in ascending?

    Did Ceridwen cause Os-Gabella's revolt? What's Ceridwen's agenda, anyway? And why did Gabella's name change to Os-Gabella? And why did Os-Gabella have to learn magic from Kylorin, rather than learning it directly from Ceridwen? You would think that Os-Gabella would be hostile to having a man as a teacher, and besides, she has known Ceridwen far longer than Kylorin has.
     

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