The Mounted Niche (not a gripe)

[Chandrasekhar]

I seem to be having a veritable explosion of ideas lately, but I'm trying to stem the tide if only because I suspect that many of them are, frankly, crap. Here's an interesting one I've had recently, though.

I think it's safe to say that the five main unit types in FfH (I'm counting Melee, Archery, Recon, Mounted, and Arcane) ought to each have their own niche to fill. What's troubled me recently is the similarities of the niches of recon and mounted units. In vanilla Civ (I know you must all be coming to hate those three words from me), the mounted units were the fast moving, raider type units. The recon units, likewise, were only used in the early game for the purpose of, well, recon. In FfH, the recon units have been expanded to be viable for the whole game, taking up the mounted units' place. The only thing that mounted units can do that recon can't is pillage, but this is a rather small feature for two completely separate areas of the tech tree.

A solution for this has presented itself. A big gripe I had with vanilla Civ was that the medieval era tended to go by more or less peacefully. The only wars were between a strong aggressor and a weak defender. This just doesn't feel right. There should be constant military struggles, with villages being regularly burnt to the ground and brigands attacking and dying even when the major powers are at peace. Hidden nationality now allows this to happen.

To put it bluntly, I want mounted units, and only mounted units, to take the hidden nationality promotion as a normal promotion. Spending some of their XP on this ought to allow them to toggle their hidden nationality on or off depending on where they are. It seems simple enough to have them only able to hide their nationality when they're in the wilderness, and only able to declare it when inside their own borders.

I love solutions that solve multiple problems, and I believe that this is one of them. First, it would give mounted units a purpose. Instead of "it's not worth it to have horses," you hear "Those enemy horse units are so irritating! I'd better build some of my own." Second, it makes cottages less mandatory, especially in border cities. "Woohoo, I've finally gotten a town! Oops, never mind." Third, it livens up the mid and late game. You'll have to keep a standing military if you want to have an improved countryside. When the wilderness is gone and barbarians are only a memory, you still have skirmishes going on all around.

I think this idea is great, or I would never have posted it. Am I just having a crazy pipe-dream here, or is this doable? I just about flipped when I heard about hidden nationality, but if it's just restricted to a few units and a wonder, then it might as well not be there as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Sureshot]

well this wouldnt solve any of the problems facing the mounted line, but it would make them have a purpose at least

 

[Chandrasekhar]

well this wouldnt solve any of the problems facing the mounted line, but it would make them have a purpose at least

The mounted line, cost-wise, is quite well balanced with the melee line. The archery line costs twice as much, and the recon half as much, but if all four could meet at the cost of melee and mounted, that would be a start. The only problem is that while the melee line reveals metals and a couple of buildings, the mounted line is just for units. Of course, making the mounted line the defacto hidden nationality source line might give some oppertunities for features and tech branches. That's all mostly aside from the point, however. This isn't so much for the sake of the mounted line as it is for gameplay in general.

 

[Sureshot]

tech cost wise with the melee line, yes, unit balance wise with the melee, no

 

[Grey Fox]

It would be cool, but... eh too tired to comment further.

 

[Endovior]

Hmm...

A part of the problem is that 'unit balance' allots a certain number of points and splits them between base strength and base move. Unfortunately, this ignores the pervasive 'doesn't receive defensive bonuses' throughout the whole line.

Hidden Nationality cavalry might be interesting... but what sense does it make? Explain why this might occur.

 

[Sureshot]

Hmm...

A part of the problem is that 'unit balance' allots a certain number of points and splits them between base strength and base move. Unfortunately, this ignores the pervasive 'doesn't receive defensive bonuses' throughout the whole line.

Hidden Nationality cavalry might be interesting... but what sense does it make? Explain why this might occur.

thats the key point right there, without defensive bonus that unit will never get modifiers to kill something of the same tier, in fact, it gets negative modifiers because of the "woodsman" promotions working on offense too

the mounted line gets negatives added on the move+str, recon gets tons of bonuses

 

[Hypnotoad]

I think this might lead to busy work. Oh crap -- another knight to go kill. I'm worried about this with the hidden nationality animals in the next version -- but we'll see. I would want to somehow automate units to kill animals and such. I don't think this would make the game more exciting. The Trojan Horse, on the other hand, I think is brilliant. It leads to large scale, strategic rather than tactical deception.

I personally think that the horse units should just be better than the melee units. To make up for this, the units should either cost more or they should come from techs that don't provide any other benefits (unlike most of the Melee and Recond techs, which also provide some sort of cool building, resource, etc.).

 

[Bad Player]

Maybe the hidden nationality should make units appear as barbarians so that you don't know if it's your only neighbour attacking you or if it really is barbarians.

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

Barbarians are Orcs - I can not really imagine whole armies running around dressed as orcs or lizardman

 

[Bad Player]

I guess flavourwise it is a problem but I think from a functional perspective it may well need to be done. It is very obvious if you have 1 other civ on the same continent and then "hidden" nationality units attack you!

 

[Sureshot]

well, using the "barbarians are orcs" argument, why doesnt everyone declare war on the Clan of Embers? i mean theyre acting all civil, but theres tons of their kind running around attacking without any restraint, and theyre peaceful with the Clan.

just think of that, if the Clan can do it, why can't everyone else via their own "uncontrollable barbarian" version of themselves

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Well, I like your destination but I'm not sure I'd drive down the same avenue. I like best of all your remark about solving multiple problems with one solution. But I'd like to kill even more birds with this stone, if possible. Here's the birds wanted dead or bleedin' real bad:

1) Lack of motivation to research the mounted branch.
2) Mounted units' lack of clear tactical role / duplication of role.
3) A nausiating lack of gratuitous viloence during long stretches of peace.
4) Early game genocides.
5) Absolute irrelevance of siege equipment.


How do we kill these birds?

1) Design a few new buildings such a the Elder Council and Obelisk. Put these civ improvemetns in the mounted line. (Some can be civ-only, like the Calabim Breeding Pit for flavor reasons.) The effect is like building a terrain improvement, but it can be done only on one tile (the city tile.) the net result is a mild economic boost - and one that cannot be pillaged.

2a) Create de-facto light ahd heavy cavalry. They would not have to be labeled heeavy cav and light cav, they would just differ in their characteristics. Of the typical land units, heavy cav would be the strongest STR units, as befits the notion of 2,500 pounds of horse, man, and armor galloping at some poor bastard holding a stick pressed into the ground a la some cheesey Holywood movie. This would be balanced out by a major negative modifier (at least-50%) when attacking cities.

2b) Light cavalry would be distingushed by high movement (3 or 4 base) and moderate STR, less than the equivalent melee units but stronger than the equivalent recon units. These units would naturally lend themselves to the hidden nationality role. They'd be the best choice for darting in, raiding, and darting away. They'd be best at the hidden nationality ruse, but I'd not forbid players from trying other units out with the ruse. Light cav would likewise have a penalty for attacking cities.

2c) Optional: I have in the past suggested 'light cavalry' units be given access to a special promotion which would act as a weak version of the Fear promotion. I'll bring t up again, because I like the idea after all . But I will admit light cav units might not "need" this ability now that Hidden Nationality is coming.

3) One pluse Two brings us to Three. Fast, hidden nationality units can be used to harrass rivals, thus adding a welcome breath of fresh arrows into boring stretches of peace. The way to counter them will be hidden recon units in your own territory. (There's an application for that Tracking tech ... somehow. )That is why light cav must be stronger than recon ... the recon can observe the raiders, but they will have to 'call in the cavalry' to defeat them. Thus we have tactical roles for these units, and we've spiced up the game.

4) Here's a problem I experience 90% of the time, probably. It is too easy to capture enemy cities with early tech units and civics. What's a +50% defensive bonus when any forested hill gives +75%? I my one Luchuirp game I destroyed Orthus, then Aecheron, then a Hippus twice my size simply by marching Bambur and Barney from city to city, evetually joined by a few Wood Golems. At the end I had literally more cities than I had units. That is the extreme example, but the basic problem exists in ost games. You can eliminate or at least cripple your neighbors backs before they have a chance to get rolling. In effect you carve out so much land for yourself so early that there's already a 98.83657% chance for victory. The game is 'won' before it really gets interesting.

To address this I would like to see city defenses improves drastically. They should start tough and grow tougher as techs come onto line. I want Seawalls against Tsunami spells. Moats to weaken cavalry charges, Firehouses (fresh water tiles only!) to negate Fireballs' Bombard ability. And just plain old +% bonus layers.

It should be tough to take a city with early techs, because that will make it real hard to win the game before it even gets started. You could hurt 'em real bad with Warriors and Axemen. but their cities would remain. After war weariness stops the war the neighbor could bounce back. At least you wold not own his resources ... yet.

And it would escalate the prevalence of raiding war. If you cannot knock out the rival, hone 'em down to size via attrition. Thus the intrepid FfH player might find herself contemplating that mounted line a bit more. You say raids and pillaging now occur more? Perhaps the economic portfolio would look better with some of those new unpillageable Market-like, Alchemy Lab-like economic enhancements tucked safely behind city walls. Only way to get them is to research the mounted line ... more motivation to research here occurs.

5) I can speak only for myself, but I cannot recall building so much as a single catapult since 0.15 has been released. I no longer bother building the token single Siege Yard for my empire. (Or whatever it's called ... been so long I don't remember the name.) Siege equipment loses out to casters in every combat category save STR. Siege is glacially slow, does not self-level, and dies frequently. Nor does Siege have the versitily of casters.

Caster fireballs and conjured units will weaken most any defense. Add some tough units to finish off the survivors and you've got yourself a new city. Add Commando promotions and Spell extension and these offenses move like lightning. Add some Heal On The move and/or some Commando Priests and these offenses never have to pause. What was once the #1 point hold is seven turn later a memory. As fun as that is, I would still like to play a game long enough to witness the appearance of a, say, a Sparatoi unit. My games are always over before then.

Thus my idea to make city capture very hard. And if that is done, that will provide an opportunity for siege equipment to shine. The appearance of Siege equipment will mark the turning point in history, the sea change on the grand strategic level that favors offense over defense. It becomes easier and easier to knock out enemy cities and civilizations from the point siege equipment appears.

In summary we are going after five birds in a synergistic way.

> Make cities hard to capture, which
> Encourages raiding warfare instead, which
> Is accomplished via Hidden Nationality, which,
> Motivates the player to place unseen recon units guarding his borders, which
> Encourages a zip in - pillage - zip out style, which
> Requires units with very high movement, which
> Makes light mounted units the most attractive raiders, which
> Further encourages R&D in the mounted line, which
> Further encourages construction of mounted units, which
> Further increases the prevalence of raiding, which
> Makes 'unpillageable' economic developments even more desireable, which
> Continues to draw interest to the mounted branch, which
> Pours more fire onto the escalating Pillage Wars, until
> Someone gets sick and tired of it and deployes Siege weapons, which
> Will be led towards enemy cities by the king of open-field war, heavy cavalry, which
> Lead the invading columns of Siege, shock infantry, and casters into enemy territory, as
> They fend off harassment from light withdrawal cavalry, assassasins, and spells, until
> At last the city walls are in sight. Siege uits bombard, while
> Berserkers ready themselves to hit the walls, as
> Defenders scramble to complete their Oil Boiler.

Which, of course, is used to fondue up them five dead birds. I love the smell of boiling oil in the morning. It smells like ... lunch.

Much stronger city defense + Hidden nationality + a few unpillageable economic tidbits in the mounted line. Sounds tasty! Or is that just me?

 

[Silverkiss]

Nah, it does sound tasty !

 

[Endovior]

I'm not sure why you're up on "Unpillageable Economic Improvement". Wouldn't it make more sense to just add buildings that you can make in the city... which are unpillageable by definition?

That being said, I can think of one...

Messenger Post (Requires Horseback Riding and Horses)
+1 , -10% Maintainance
(Messengers, traveling quickly on horseback between this city and others, are able to more quickly relay vital information, allowing the ruler's orders to be implemented more quickly, and benefiting merchants as well)

I can't think of any other good ones... Stirrups and Warhorses don't lend themselves well to peacetime uses.

 

[Gladi]

I'm not sure why you're up on "Unpillageable Economic Improvement". Wouldn't it make more sense to just add buildings that you can make in the city... which are unpillageable by definition?

That being said, I can think of one...

Messenger Post (Requires Horseback Riding and Horses)
+1 , -10% Maintainance
(Messengers, traveling quickly on horseback between this city and others, are able to more quickly relay vital information, allowing the ruler's orders to be implemented more quickly, and benefiting merchants as well)

I can't think of any other good ones... Stirrups and Warhorses don't lend themselves well to peacetime uses.

Bright day
Well if Warhorse was renamed to something like advanced breeding techniques or heavy horse, you could up some improvements (IRL they were used in farming and mining). Though that would be too unbalancing.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I'm not sure why you're up on "Unpillageable Economic Improvement". Wouldn't it make more sense to just add buildings that you can make in the city... which are unpillageable by definition?

That being said, I can think of one...

Messenger Post (Requires Horseback Riding and Horses)
+1 , -10% Maintainance
(Messengers, traveling quickly on horseback between this city and others, are able to more quickly relay vital information, allowing the ruler's orders to be implemented more quickly, and benefiting merchants as well)

I can't think of any other good ones... Stirrups and Warhorses don't lend themselves well to peacetime uses.

That is egg zactly what I meant ... buildings. Buildings are not pillageable until the entire city is at risk. But I am trying to communicate an idea. I do not want players to read this idea and think, 'ho hum another building'.

I want them to think "Oh ho! A new route to economic develpment! Well, why do I need a new route to development? Ah, yes, I see, it is because development outside city walls will be riskier now."

As to the rationale why animal technologies should lead to economic improvements, I urge you to rethink your perspectives. Before the advent of the steam engine, all industrial power was provided by animal power. (Beast or burden or human labor, it's all animal power.) Fantasy environments generally mimic the pre-industrial era in terms of economy. Farms don't get farmed without oxen to draw the plows. Mines don't get mined without burros to pull the carts ... or giant cockroaches or something.

I put it to you and the lurkership that, from a standpoint of mere logic, animal technologies should be one of the very linchpins to economic development. I'm not suggesting going that far. I'm just suggesting some of the game's economy be found in that line. Examples are not that hard to think of:

Wheelwells. Beast of burden in treadwheels help provide drinking water through the city. +2 Health

Grainmill: Nothing like a local miler to get more meals out of each bag of wheat. +2 Food.

Stockyards: Facilities to house and butcher food animals on a larger scale. Grants +1 happy face for each of Cow, Sheep, Pig. Ample fresh meat allows for more population density. But the extra animals present bring a cost -1 Health.

Teamster Yards: Teamster Yards prodive stabling space and cargo-handling facilities to expidite the use of animal-drawn wagons. Better local transport means a better economy. Effect: +10% hammers +10% gold but only if the city has access to Horses, Cows, Pigs, or Sheep and -1 Health regardless.

These are all top of the head stuff. Happy faces might not be the way to go, it could just as easilly be +food. It's not hard to think of economic boosts based on animal handling though, when you count the legs of thecritters doing the actual work.

 

[bdmarti]

Bright day
Well if Warhorse was renamed to something like advanced breeding techniques or heavy horse, you could up some improvements (IRL they were used in farming and mining). Though that would be too unbalancing.

Why would that be too unbalancing?

I think that might be a great way to spice up the later stages of the mounted branch.

Add a building like a "Draught Shop" that adds a couple of food production like the breeding pit does.
Or add a dead end technology like "Riding Plows" that adds +1 food per farm but requires the warhorse tech and access to horses or cattle.
Or give access to a new civic like "Advanced Agriculture" that gives +1 food per farm and +1 health, but again, require access to horses or cattle, and have this civic available only after researching warhorses.

I think it might flow a little nicer to rename the warhorses tech to "Large horses" or "Large Breeds" or something like that.

 

[Sureshot]

ya, buildings make more sense for what unser is talking about, one of the main things that would help i think would be if Walls actually stacked with cultural defense.. atm once your city gets the first culture increase walls are pointless (could also make walls count as double defense against cavalry).

a heavy and light line would definately be fun

 

[Gladi]

Why would that be too unbalancing?

Well dunno, all Civs so far peeved me out with regards to whole land development shtick, but I though I would get lynched if if I proposed Horse Collar, which increased horse draft by 600% in High Middle Ages in reality.

Two years ago I took vacation alongside retired miner, who started in non-mechanized mine way back in time. And they used horses quite extensively.

And many other things Civs has chosen not to represent. /shrug Reality is just unfairly unbalanced in favour of builders.