The Netherlands

[KevinJK]

This is just a joke, right? They're going to fix this in their first patch, aren't they?

A unique ability that should never be used, a unique unit that gains nothing but two promotions you can earn anyway, and a unique improvement that's not available for quite a while and equal to a farm until way later.

I hope they got a good laugh from this. Celts, Ethiopia, Carthage... there are some really good civs here. Then they threw in one so bad it makes America look good. Seems odd.


Also, what's up with Sweden? A diplomatic power, but then two unique units? That makes no sense.

 

[GenjiKhan]

This is just a joke, right? They're going to fix this in their first patch, aren't they?

A unique ability that should never be used, a unique unit that gains nothing but two promotions you can earn anyway, and a unique improvement that's not available for quite a while and equal to a farm until way later.

I hope they got a good laugh from this. Celts, Ethiopia, Carthage... there are some really good civs here. Then they threw in one so bad it makes America look good. Seems odd.

If you never use their UA,you are playing with Netherlands in a very wrong way . Also,America isn't that bad,considering that both parts of their UA are quite powerful in the beginning of the game .

Also, what's up with Sweden? A diplomatic power, but then two unique units? That makes no sense.

I think this choice does make sense . Just remember that trying to be friendly with everyone does not prevent you from getting enemies and sometimes,you need to get 1 enemy to get 2 friends

 

[KevinJK]

If you kept all happiness from trading the last copy of a luxury resource, it would be a kind-of-okay unique ability. As it is, I would never want to trade that extra happiness for a small extra gold bonus. It's just a bad ability.

A unique building that provided a great person generation bonus would make much more sense on Sweden, or even a building that provided another diplomacy-related bonus. I see that research agreements are friend-only now, so perhaps a building that boosted that. They ideally want to be at war with no one and friends with everyone. Extra unique units doesn't mesh well with their ability.

Look at Ethiopia for a perfectly designed civ. Their ability compliments a small empire, their unit is better at defending the capitol, and their building compliments Piety, which compliments a small empire. Everything fits together and makes sense. Sweden and the Netherlands lack this. Celts are likewise very well designed. They favor early expansion and war to build up faith, and their building helps curb unhappiness (with a huge +3) from all those cities later on. Again, these bonuses make sense and work well together.

 

[notadummy]

This is just a joke, right? They're going to fix this in their first patch, aren't they?

A unique ability that should never be used, a unique unit that gains nothing but two promotions you can earn anyway, and a unique improvement that's not available for quite a while and equal to a farm until way later.

I hope they got a good laugh from this. Celts, Ethiopia, Carthage... there are some really good civs here. Then they threw in one so bad it makes America look good. Seems odd.


Also, what's up with Sweden? A diplomatic power, but then two unique units? That makes no sense.

First of all, America is amazing, b12s pwn, and their sight is really useful, like in scouting for example (or sight for artillery)

Anyways, the dutch's UA is extremely useful early game, since you are getting your luxuries but have a bunch of happiness. 240 extra gold early on is really awesome!

 

[KevinJK]

B17s just have free promotions. Unique units that aren't actually unique annoy me. It was unfair to say America sucks, though. It doesn't.

Actually, B17 is my entire problem with America because what they really need is an early unique building that promotes growth or food. Buying panels isn't normally useful because once you've got citizens to work, your city has grown anyway. Having them grow citizens faster to use the panel purchase would make a bunch more sense than having a sub-par unique. Minuteman is cool though, and much better now that it's part of the normal melee unit promotion line.

See, this is what I'm trying to say: bonuses on a civ should make sense together.

 

[Remmert]

I wonder, what are the advances/bonuses of a Sea Beggar against a normal Privateer?
It seems they can both plunder gold from cities and take over enenmy ships...

 

[Hpuk]

Why would you not use their UA?
Even without that bonus, I almost always sell my first improved luxury asap, as the 240 gold early on goes a long way to either buying a library in my second city, or befriending a CS.
With this UA, you can sell your first 2 luxuries, and still not go unhappy before your 3rd city.

 

[WiseGreen]

If you kept all happiness from trading the last copy of a luxury resource, it would be a kind-of-okay unique ability. As it is, I would never want to trade that extra happiness for a small extra gold bonus. It's just a bad ability.

In higher difficulties, one often sells single-copy luxuries only to get "a small extra gold bonus", happily going to negative happiness for it. Doing that and being able to keep half that happiness isn't negligible, it's very good.

 

[GenjiKhan]

A unique building that provided a great person generation bonus would make much more sense on Sweden, or even a building that provided another diplomacy-related bonus. I see that research agreements are friend-only now, so perhaps a building that boosted that. They ideally want to be at war with no one and friends with everyone. Extra unique units doesn't mesh well with their ability.

I don't think Sweden would need an UB that gives such bonus,neither an UB that improve diplomacy . They already have an UA for those things .

 

[KevinJK]

In higher difficulties, one often sells single-copy luxuries only to get "a small extra gold bonus", happily going to negative happiness for it. Doing that and being able to keep half that happiness isn't negligible, it's very good.

Golden Ages provide gold, production, and now culture. Why would you sacrifice that for a small benefit up front?

 

[chazzycat]

try trading your last one away for another lux instead

 

[mabalogna]

UA
-Trade away last luxury for one you dont have and effectively receive +2 happiness.
-Trade away last luxury early on to get +gold to buy out CS early for Culture/Faith/Happiness etc. and retain +2 happiness
-Trade away last luxury early game to get +gold to buy worker/settler for fast expand, get another luxury and repeat

UI
-Improvement that is as good as a Civil Service farm initially no matter where it's placed, and then add in the effects of a trade post and additional production and you have a fast growing, and commercially rich city.

UU - Haven't made it to renaissance to see its effectiveness, but the dutch are a naval power and i'm assuming a beefed up melee renaissance ship can't be all that bad for some good ol' colonialism

Netherlands is a commerce civ - exploiting trade/diplo is essential. If you want to make the most out of Golden ages play persia.

 

[Captain Fargle]

240 Gold is early on is NOT a small benefit. It is a MASSIVE one. Furthermore, if you trade away your last copy of luxury for a one that you do not yet have you actually get MORE happiness than if you hadn't traded.

The Dutch UA is fantastic.

 

[KevinJK]

Sell for gold? Currency is available extremely early (only five techs) to unlock Arabia's Bazaar. This adds gold and luxuries to trade, plus they get added gold for trade routes, bonus oil (to trade, if you want), and a decent unit that's actually unique. None of that requires sacrificing happiness, so they'll also get golden ages sooner. If we're comparing diplomatic trade civs, the Netherlands can't even begin to compete.

If you're just trading it for another luxury to get +2 happiness, there are plenty of civs better suited to that. Many get happiness from unique buildings, several of which are available quite early. They also don't rely on other civs to get the bonus. They must be built or purchased, but so must workers and improvements to get luxuries.


I just don't see what the Netherlands can do that another civ can't do better.

UU - Haven't made it to renaissance to see its effectiveness, but the dutch are a naval power and i'm assuming a beefed up melee renaissance ship can't be all that bad for some good ol' colonialism

It just gains two free promotions. Unique units that aren't actually unique piss me off. What's the point of them when there are plenty of unique units that actually do something cool or different?

 

[Calouste]

Sell for gold? Currency is available extremely early (only five techs) to unlock Arabia's Bazaar. This adds gold and luxuries to trade, plus they get added gold for trade routes, bonus oil (to trade, if you want), and a decent unit that's actually unique. None of that requires sacrificing happiness, so they'll also get golden ages sooner. If we're comparing diplomatic trade civs, the Netherlands can't even begin to compete.

If you're just trading it for another luxury to get +2 happiness, there are plenty of civs better suited to that. Many get happiness from unique buildings, several of which are available quite early. They also don't rely on other civs to get the bonus. They must be built or purchased, but so must workers and improvements to get luxuries.


I just don't see what the Netherlands can do that another civ can't do better.

513 Floodplains and 412 Marshes at Economics.

 

[Captain Fargle]

It doesn't matter that the Arabs get their bonus at 5 techs. The Dutch can get theirs at either 1 or 2 techs to give them a huge advantage in Ancient Era expansion.

And the point of Unique Units that gain promotions are that they are a powerful bonus that's available right from the start rather than having to do a hell of a lot of fighting to get to them. How long do you think it would take you to get those promotions otherwise? You'd be EXTREMELY lucky to get them all within 50 turns while the Sea Beggars have them from the moment they were built. It's that 50 turn advantage that makes them unique, not the promotions themselves.

 

[Lyoncet]

Sell for gold? Currency is available extremely early (only five techs) to unlock Arabia's Bazaar. This adds gold and luxuries to trade, plus they get added gold for trade routes, bonus oil (to trade, if you want), and a decent unit that's actually unique. None of that requires sacrificing happiness, so they'll also get golden ages sooner. If we're comparing diplomatic trade civs, the Netherlands can't even begin to compete.

Everything you say here is correct... except for the part where you leap from "East India Company is worse than the Bazaar" to "Netherlands can't even begin to compete." Being worse than the Bazaar is like being worse than the Keshik. If you're comparing them in the first place, it's probably good.

Honestly compared to most I seem to be on the side of Netherlands being a little overrated, but between the above and calling selling luxuries a "small" benefit I think we can safely say that I think you're pretty much just plain wrong. Have you ever played/watched a high-level game? Half of what differentiates deity players from monarch players is how good they are at exploiting luxury sales for gold.

 

[That nerdy kid]

speaking of keshiks, why does no one ever talk about Arabia's UU?

 

[smallfish]

He just called the B17 a complete waste lol

You try that when you've got an human opponent with 10 stacks of them, all ready to be upgraded to Stealth.

 

[mabalogna]

I don't beeline for Currency in the beginning; i'm teching up bronze working or calender or whatever to get my economy going. I dont generally make it to Currency until I actually NEED markets.

The benefit of the UA really comes in handy at the beginning of the game while the AI is slowly building up their coffers with gold by popping huts or working tiles. By the time i have my first resource up i can find my richest friend and sell it off immediately for instant gold. That gold translates either into a new settler if i want to fast expand, or beefing up relations with a desired city state. This skill comes in even more handy when you have 2 or more of the same resource in your city start. This effectively doubles my profit potential at the very beginning of the game allowing me to pick up steam quickly and spreading out to grab as many resources as possible.


Currency requires turns for teching, then it requires turns for building bazaars while the UA of the Dutch only requires me to connect to a resource and maintain good relations with my neighbour.

I'm not saying this is a super powerful ability that dominates like other civ's, but i do believe that if you use it right it can be really useful