The next beta- changelog

[Enginseer]

If Autocratic Civs are more likely to capitulate civilizations, I am willing to give this a +1.

 

[FoxOfWar]

This bunch of changes is making me want to play a big-wide crazy-conqueror game, and to a lesser degree play wide diplomatic Siam too. Possibly both at the same time. I always loved Gunboat Diplomacy as an idea in this game, so I enjoy seeing the idea of power projection we're having here.

 

[Asterix Rage]

I don't join the debat about balance linked with policies, ideologies or religious. Many ideas are interesting. I'll deal with what will be decided.

My concern is about (ones again) an Advanced Carrier missing from my point of view.
I'm thinking a mignificent and solid atomic carrier carring 5 jets, bombers or missiles. Made with Aluminium, Oil and Uranium
How is it possible to get Xcom, Missile cruisers and Death Robot when the carrier remains an old 40' model?
I know most of the games are over before the end of technology tree but in some cases it should be great to ease the final naval imperialist operations.

A couple of well designed Atomic carriers are available here and there. Like many of us, I use one of them after editing the .xml to make it balanced with VP.

It's time to make it. Don't you think?

 

[ElliotS]

I don't join the debat about balance linked with policies, ideologies or religious. Many ideas are interesting. I'll deal with what will be decided.

My concern is about (ones again) an Advanced Carrier missing from my point of view.
I'm thinking a mignificent and solid atomic carrier carring 5 jets, bombers or missiles. Made with Aluminium, Oil and Uranium
How is it possible to get Xcom, Missile cruisers and Death Robot when the carrier remains an old 40' model?
I know most of the games are over before the end of technology tree but in some cases it should be great to ease the final naval imperialist operations.

A couple of well designed Atomic carriers are available here and there. Like many of us, I use one of them after editing the .xml to make it balanced with VP.

It's time to make it. Don't you think?

I don't disagree, but this has been an issue for me all of 0 times so I literally couldn't be less apathetic to the 'problem.'

 

[HalfEmptyMug]

Iron Fist (replaces Autarky) - Vassals can no longer rebel or be liberated. Yields from Vassals and City-States increased by 100%, and +50% Worker Improvement rate.

• Note that part of this bonus relies on C4DF. If you don't use C4DF, only 1/2 of this tenet applies. Eh, most users use it anyways...
• The idea here is that you take this if you have strong vassals, there's WC pressure against your vassals, or you've got a lot of CS allies.

Does this mean a civ with this policy won't be able to liberate a vassal of their own volition, and does this prevent vassal liberation as part of a peace deal?

Either way, regarding liberation, is it possible to always have liberation possible as part of a peace deal? There have been several times I've been burned trying to save an ally from being conquered, only to have them capitulate right as I arrive with their conqueror willing to accept their own capitulation (war score wise) or conquest over liberation. Just a small peeve I've had with vassalage for a while.

Love the changes though, especially the harder focus on diplomacy/tourism for Autocracy.

 

[Gazebo]

Does this mean a civ with this policy won't be able to liberate a vassal of their own volition, and does this prevent vassal liberation as part of a peace deal?

Either way, regarding liberation, is it possible to always have liberation possible as part of a peace deal? There have been several times I've been burned trying to save an ally from being conquered, only to have them capitulate right as I arrive with their conqueror willing to accept their own capitulation (war score wise) or conquest over liberation. Just a small peeve I've had with vassalage for a while.

Love the changes though, especially the harder focus on diplomacy/tourism for Autocracy.

It will prevent others from forcing liberation, and from liberation being part of a peace deal, yes. The master can still voluntarily liberate, though.

G

 

[Phalanx BR]

Barbarians are also no longer speed monsters on tundra

You might want to remove the barbarian speed bonus on floodplains too. It's less common, but with the Marsh Walkers promotion they can move 4 tiles at a time (if you do so, it might be worth it to remove the promotion altogether, marshes being so rare). Another consideration is to remove the Tundra movement bonus on the Pictish Warrior (and keep the combat bonus), since they get to move 4 tiles at a time on Tundra too.

 

[Robertm94]

hey g now youre back can i ask if you have looked into addressing unhappiness via crime if you turn off espionage?

If you have espionage off, you cant build constabularies or police stations so you get really unhappy really fast

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Alright, poured over my notes, the SQL database, and the DLL, and here's what I've got. I like it, personally. Does it address every complaint ever in a perfect way? Nah. Is it an improvement over v1? I'd say so. Added my thoughts too.

When? I'm looking forward to trying this out.

USW is too long for the policy boxes unfortunately. Here's my take on the policy:



Prize Rules: gold from kills (150% of CS), 5 XP from pillaging tiles.

G

I heavily preferred the previous version with the Lighthouse/Harbour/etc. In this form I don't think I will touch this one. It's a bit too late for Gold from kills (150% or not) and small pillaging bonus to navy to matter, especially considering how infrequent fishing boats are to begin with and how much of a pain it is to micromanage them to rebuild the boat. This doesn't work like Workers do where they might be stupid when told to automatically improve, but at least they will still automatically repair sooner or later when you've got those 40-50 cities and are not willing to do so yourself. Pillaging bonus would make sense on land units, but on sea ones. Not the case with fishing boats. +10% Production on a seaport would be better if the train station didn't exist. Bad policy I'll stay away from in this form imho

 

[ashendashin]

When? I'm looking forward to trying this out.



I heavily preferred the previous version with the Lighthouse/Harbour/etc. In this form I don't think I will touch this one. It's a bit too late for Gold from kills (150% or not) and small pillaging bonus to navy to matter, especially considering how infrequent fishing boats are to begin with and how much of a pain it is to micromanage them to rebuild the boat. This doesn't work like Workers do where they might be stupid when told to automatically improve, but at least they will still automatically repair sooner or later when you've got those 40-50 cities and are not willing to do so yourself. Pillaging bonus would make sense on land units, but on sea ones. Not the case with fishing boats. +10% Production on a seaport would be better if the train station didn't exist. Bad policy I'll stay away from in this form imho

150% of the high late-game CS is pretty damn good business I'd say. On large games I'll be buying shiny new ships every turn with all the prizes coming in. With the seaports that allow purchasing ships in the first place that is.

Though the 5xp does kinda suck. I've taken to increasing fish spawns on communitas because sea resources aren't exactly plentiful for the most part.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

150% of the high late-game CS is pretty damn good business I'd say. On large games I'll be buying shiny new ships every turn with all the prizes coming in. With the Seaports that allow purchasing ships in the first place that is.

Though the 5xp does kinda suck. I've taken to increasing fish spawns on communitas because sea resources aren't exactly plentiful for the most part.

Yeah, you'll get a free ship every what, 10 kills? That's nothing. Just get Third Alternative and you might get 100-200 GPT per turn even if you don't fight, that and double the resources. All that's a bit bad for being the primary benefit of the policy to be so outclassed. Even with the buff seaports still are godawful buildings only meant for 1 tile islands and some particular cities so even with +10% Production they'll still be worse than trainstations which, while better by definition, even require around 20% Production less to build. Free oil/coal from CS is good in theory, but at 1 per CS it's not going to amount to much unless you're pretty much winning the diplomatic victory to begin with, and it's never beating Third Alternative. The policy is an outright obsolete, inferior version of Third Alternative as it is, and TA is far from being overpowered.

 

[ashendashin]

Yeah, you'll get a free ship every what, 10 kills? That's nothing. Just get Third Alternative and you might get 200-300 GPT per turn even if you don't fight, that and double the resources. All that's a bit bad for being the primary benefit of the policy to be so outclassed. Even with the buff seaports still are godawful buildings only meant for 1 tile islands and some particular cities so even with +10% Production they'll still be worse than trainstations which, while better by definition, even require around 20% Production less to build. Free oil/coal from CS is good in theory, but at 1 per CS it's not going to amount to much unless you're pretty much winning the diplomatic victory to begin with, and it's never beating Third Alternative. The policy is an outright obsolete, inferior version of Third Alternative as it is, and TA is far from being overpowered.

...Seaports are awful? What? That's production per sea tile on top of imperialism's if you got it. It frees up tiles for inland cities to use and allows buying ships, which is extremely useful in most of my games. Not only that, it doesn't require railroads!

Anyways look at the gold this way: You're doubling your GPT at the least if you dominate the seas. This tenet looks awesome if you're doing heavy naval combat or just have loads of coastal cities with not enough useful tiles. I find myself with that combo pretty much all the damn time when I'm focusing on CSs.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

...Seaports are awful? What? That's production per sea tile on top of imperialism's if you got it. It frees up tiles for inland cities to use and allows buying ships, which is extremely useful in most of my games. Not only that, it doesn't require railroads!

'

Automatic workers will build those railroads anyway and a train station is outright superior (aside from buying ships, but you don't exactly need many cities for that - one sacrificial lamb, or maybe some small island cities). Bonus 10% Production 10% Gold beats the measly gold from tiles you might not even work because you likely have growth problems if you went authority-piety-imperialism-autocracy route. Tiles with strategic resources/luxuries/gps will still be superior and they'll be the ones you work, along with some specialists. How many tiles a coastal city would need to not only beat those two +10% yield superiorities, but also the innate production cost? Seaport costs 20% more after all, so there better be tons of those tiles and turns to pay back that production and heavily inferior modifiers. Not happening outside of small islands.

Anyways look at the gold this way: You're doubling your GPT at the least if you dominate the seas. This tenet looks awesome if you're doing heavy naval combat or just have loads of coastal cities with not enough useful tiles. I find myself with that combo pretty much all the damn time when I'm focusing on CSs.

Still worse than the Third Alternative, especially considering the benefit ends with the ships in the sea. It's less stable and very likely to provide way less, not too good. Every turn you don't kill two-three ships, Third Alternative laughs at you, especially considering it might have gotten monopolies you didn't. +1 coal/oil for ally is not even comparable to double resources, not unless your huge empire has really awful luck at resources and you have so many CSs, you'd win the game if the world leader vote happened this turn.

 

[Enginseer]

People forget that Seaports also provide Unit Supply as well.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

People forget that Seaports also provide Unit Supply as well.

Perhaps, but other people forget that it doesn't matter for a warmongerer, especially one who went (Authority>Piety>)Imperialism, which is what this policy seems to be focusing on. Imperialism gets you tons of yields on military buildings that provide supply, so you will focus them even more than you naturally would, so you will have them and since you're big that's a lot of supply, therefore you won't have supply problems. It might as well not exist.

In addition, some people forget that some people also constantly say stuff like "people forget". However, some people forget that some people forget that some people say "people forget" frequently, therefore it's best to end this train of thought here. For all we know, some people could be forgetting all the above, and then they could also be forsaken!

 

[Enginseer]

Perhaps, but other people forget that it doesn't matter for a warmongerer, especially one who went (Authority>Piety>)Imperialism, which is what this policy seems to be focusing on. Imperialism gets you tons of yields on military buildings that provide supply, so you will focus them even more than you naturally would, so you will have them and since you're big that's a lot of supply, therefore you won't have supply problems. It might as well not exist.

In addition, some people forget that some people also constantly say stuff like "people forget". However, some people forget that some people say that some people say "people forget" frequently, therefore it's best to end this train of thought here. For all we know, some people could be forgetting all the above, and then they could also be forsaken!

Ah, but you forget that people often crusade for their gods and thus suffer great war weariness. Seaports definitely help supplement those Unit Supply that will constantly deplete after your daily crusades.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Ah, but you forget that people often crusade for their gods and thus suffer great war weariness. Seaports definitely help supplement those Unit Supply that will constantly deplete after your daily crusades.

But you do forget that the help is not significant enough for an Authority-Piety-Imperialism goer who is not likely to be tall. I've never had supply problems after fighting if I've had up-to-date barracks/etc myself, at least not with the authority's policy that increases supply by 25% or something like that.

Even if we assume that supply does matter, for all we know if your cities had the superior Train Station™, the vastly improved Production and Gold would allow you to end the conflict before the war weariness even came around, and the Train Station™'s great, lower cost could allow you to build an unit earlier, also putting an end to the hostilities between you and the vile Aztecs. Truly, the Train Station™ is what all true warriors strive for, without even being overpowered. Order Train Station™ right now and I'll make the offer even better - you'll get 1 Gold lower maintenance over the port of sea. Train Station™ Corporation totally didn't do the typical supermarket trick and increased the maintenance 5 seconds before the discount, it wasn't always 1 lower than the brandless port of seas.

 

[balinte]

I dont like the Poland change as it proposes a culture heavy gamestyle
having to rush now for your "powerspike" at the ideologys.

Quite a change really for me at least.
I was happy that I didnt need to go culture with that single civ.

 

[Misaka]

Gazebo:
Capitalism (edited) - 10 Specialists in each of your cities generate Happiness instead of creating Unhappiness.

if i see correct, before 5 specialist not generate Unhappiness, almost of my games in my case i have 20-25 city when i unlock this, in that case. this negate 25 - 31,25 Unhappiness, and its a really god, but now its 10 Specialist not only negate, now its give happines, i think its 0,25 per Specialist, now int my games
negate 50-62,5 Unhappines and add me 50-62,5 Unhappines, i can consider i "obtain" 100-125 Unhappines modifier (negate+added) and its a 400% of that value before, i complain because i see too strong for me. For other changes i like it

I'm never play autocracy xD, i don't know how really afect the changes you trying to make. the reason i don't play autocracy its for my play style xD.
but i play 95% fredom and the other 5% order xD

 

[CrazyG]

'

Automatic workers will build those railroads anyway and a train station is outright superior (aside from buying ships, but you don't exactly need many cities for that - one sacrificial lamb, or maybe some small island cities). Bonus 10% Production 10% Gold beats the measly gold from tiles you might not even work because you likely have growth problems if you went authority-piety-imperialism-autocracy route. Tiles with strategic resources/luxuries/gps will still be superior and they'll be the ones you work, along with some specialists. How many tiles a coastal city would need to not only beat those two +10% yield superiorities, but also the innate production cost? Seaport costs 20% more after all, so there better be tons of those tiles and turns to pay back that production and heavily inferior modifiers. Not happening outside of small islands.



Still worse than the Third Alternative, especially considering the benefit ends with the ships in the sea. It's less stable and very likely to provide way less, not too good. Every turn you don't kill two-three ships, Third Alternative laughs at you, especially considering it might have gotten monopolies you didn't. +1 coal/oil for ally is not even comparable to double resources, not unless your huge empire has really awful luck at resources and you have so many CSs, you'd win the game if the world leader vote happened this turn.

Rather than repeatedly bashing tenets you find terrible, could you offer suggestions? I really like the UST design, though I agree the bonus for pillaging is rather pointless

Also if seaports or anything else isn't well balanced in your opinion, why not address that in a relevant thread? I keep seeing "Autocracy tenet XYZ is terrible because something else is terrible", which is just a dead end for discussion. If seaports, internal trade routes, police stations, or something else is underperforming, then lets do something about it (regardless of what happens in Autocracy)

I also need to point out that you keep making a ton of assumptions when pointing out that things are bad, which aren't always true. I'm not going authority-piety-imperialism every time I pick autocracy. I don't have a wide empire every time either. If a tenet doesn't fit your own personal playstyle it doesn't mean it deserves an "F". If you want a bunch of production and science in every city, take order. Maybe you are just a communist at heart