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The Next Major War...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by CurtSibling, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    The cold war happened because the cost of a hot war was too terrible. Both sides knew that another shooting war at that time would likely go nuclear. Nukes were too new and scary. None of the leaders wanted to take on that responsibility. Upholding an Iron Curtain was a simpler solution with far fewer risks.
     
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  2. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    I meant more of what took it beyond "the staredown" to the dirty war of installing bloody-handed, human-rights abusing, tyrants and arming atrocious, criminal-against-humanity, terroristic militias in numerous Third World Countries to stop the other sides' bloody-handed, human-rights abusing, tyrants and atrocious, criminal-against-humanity, terroristic militias from gaining a foothold there instead.
     
  3. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    The cold war provided an ideal environment for both sides to fight their "proxy wars and revolutions". The new world order after WW2 had no "normalcy" to it and governments went all out to win. The modern globalized world of the 1980s-now was unimagined. A Red East and Democratic west were seen as the new world order.
     
  4. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Communism as we saw it, fascism as well, and now in the atomized form in personal narcissism are all deliberate projections taking an idea and trying to create a reality out of that compression. Like all attempts to force an aspirational simplicity on a complex reality, violence is consequent.
     
  5. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    What, and you're under the impression liberal capitalism has not been an attempt to force an aspirational simplicity on a complex reality? Just so we're clear?
     
  6. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Why would we need to be clear when we’ve discussed it many times?
     
  7. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    I guess what new I could add is that all of those seem like distortions on top of liberalist capitalism, branches of capitalism reexpressing itself. So for however much capitalism’s existence is top down aspirational impositions, the others, being of that, have all of that and more.
     
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  8. Truthy

    Truthy Idle

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    How do liberals or liberalism do this more than communists or socialists. So much of liberalism is “we don’t know.” Leftism is so much “gimme gimme the power, we know because I studied really hard, promise”

    There’s a reason they are conflict theorists not functionalists

    I dunno, I guess you’ll say something to the effect of capital = mummies
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  9. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Every political ideology that has had a practical taste of power, and not remained entirely theoretical, has engaged in these kinds of aggregious behaviours in some form and context in some place and time.
     
  10. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Who is Mr. Kalugin, by the way? Oleg Kalugin was 12 when Cold War begun.
     
  11. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    So, I gather you're pretty much unfamiliar with the early history of liberalism or what Polanyi called the "market society", is that true? Are you familiar with Townsend, Bentham, Malthus? The Enclosure Acts? I ask because before I answer your question I need to know what level of knowledge I'm dealing with.

    All you're really doing so far is demonstrating that liberalism has become so hegemonic that many liberals aren't capable of seeing liberalism as a positive ideology anymore.

    Have we? It's always a good idea to be clear because people's ideas and thinking can change.

    Well sure, I agree with that.
     
  12. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    The "real liberalism we have" is all about "I shall have more power because I'm a technocrat and know best". The US has be turning itself into a police state with everyone spied upon and the technocracy in power using that knowledge to manipulate politics. And the alleged embodiment of liberalism, the European Union, is all about There Is No Alternative, it is its modus operandi.

    So what if the "real communism we had" was also a bunch of technocrats who manged to create a top-down system? The "real liberalism" also lies about bringing personal liberty.

    The problem is concentration of power itself. And that at least the theoretical communism beats theoretical liberalism: it calls for decentralizing power. Liberalism claims it can somehow tame power hierarchies and make them "fair", it favors a hierarchical world. It's worse.
     
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  13. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    That sounds downright Neo-Orwellian...
     
  14. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Earth's gravity wouldn't be an issue to an interstellar civilzation. The energy to get down to and away from Earth would pale against the energy it takes to move through interstellar space. That said, there are far easier targets for exploration in our solar system than Earth.

    100%. You can find all non-organic resources off the Earth. If you're already a space fairing society, it would be trivial to harvest those rather than piss off the natives. And there are organic resources off the Earth - Titan has oceans of them - but Earth has orders of magnitudes more variety in organic materials.

    Truly that officer was a hero of the planet Earth. No exaggeration.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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  15. Truthy

    Truthy Idle

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    Hm. I'd call this a failure of theory of mind, to be honest. Try to reconcile these assumptions with, say, our argument from the "rules" thread. Those were justifications for respect for social relations that the English were the first to kill, before the market society rampaged across the rest of world doing the same thing to everyone else. Doesn't matter much if we're talking about bread and olive oil or managing the "fictitious commodities." Also, I was saying every ideology is a "kooky ideology." Liberalism's no exception. But look at the coordination. State-market interplay, via Enclosurement or whatever else, doesn't change that.

    So anyway. Hopefully this isn't too cryptic: as they try to slay Moloch, the heroes of "the Great Transformation" are awfully predisposed to becoming the villains of "Seeing Like a State."
     
  16. Truthy

    Truthy Idle

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    That's great. Except we live in a Zipfian world
     
  17. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Yeah, this post is far too cryptic for me. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The last sentence makes sense but is clearly based on a misreading (or non-reading) of The Great Transformation insofar as the only clearly identifiable "hero" in that book is probably Robert Owen.

    I don't understand how
    equates somehow to "every ideology is a kooky ideology. Liberalism's no exception", either. Your whole position here makes no sense to me at all, particularly considering that in the current political battle over the Democratic party, the anti-leftist liberal side is the one obsessed with its technocratic/meritocratic qualifications and detailed policy knowledge. I have no idea how you reconcile this with "so much of liberalism is 'we don't know'". And since Hillary Clinton's election pitch was basically "gimme gimme the power, we know because I studied really hard, promise" it strikes me as even stranger.

    Hmm, is this an oblique way of claiming hierarchies are ordained by nature?
     
  18. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Human (and other great ape) nature. Canine nature. Leonine nature. Herd animal nature. Ant and bee nature in a hardcore way. But not feline (other than leonine) nature, or ursine nature, or serpentine nature. We're wired as a species, biologically and psychologically, for hierarchy. And we lack the inherent and intrinsic instinct for a communal, gregarious, internally benevolent and sharing of resources and watching out for, and watching the backs of, each other that rodents have. Hierarchy is an instinct and nature that goes deep, into the primordial, genetic make-up of who we are as a species. If you're not satisfied with God saying it, Darwin says it too....
     
  19. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Much like the totalitarian Soviet state wasn't really representative of communism, no modern state has represented actual capitalism. Actual capitalism acknowledges that the market is heavily burdened with forces pushing towards monopolization, so actual capitalism, if it existed, would have to include sufficient market regulation to contain those forces. Most states that claim to be "capitalist," upon examination, not only lack such regulation but often they have regulation of the market that amplifies the push towards monopolization. Personally, I am no more compelled to condemn capitalism than I am to condemn communism. Both are ideas that have never really been tried that are sullied by bad results achieved by false claimants.
     
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  20. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    No state in history has lived up to the vaunted ideals of Plato's book, "the Republic," despite the word being used for the label of the official name and/or governing style of the great majority of nations in the world today.
     

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