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[BTS] The NOOBle Prince of Portugal

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lunitis, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. Lunitis

    Lunitis Chieftain

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    I almost never go for combat I, looked kinda weak +10%, but didnt knew it lead to medics.

    So if i select the hole stack and attack will it choose the unit with better odds? Or i have to look by myself what is the best unit to start with?

    I have the general on the new city, and im not sure if they will try to attack it. Will the general fight also? Or is like a worker (evaporates)? If i risk to loose him better uso him before.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Well, combat I leads to other promotions that can be important, especially for melee units. The combat promo line is also my preferred promos for mounted units generally. Keep in mind that Combat I is 10%, but that is 10% of base strength, and each subsequent Combat promo is additive.

    I don't use stack attack, but I assume it uses the best odds on attackers. Still, I think it better to choose your attacks. You might actually sometimes want to go with the weaker units on attack first, especially against a city, in order to preserve your more experienced units.

    Great Generals by themselves are just like a Great Person, they have no combat ability. Attach your great general to a unit, medic or super dude, or just keep him with a stack for now. Besides the super medic as mentioned earlier, another good use for the GG is to attach him to a unit in a small injured stack to divided XP across those units. The promotions will help them heal. So sometimes with extra GGs I just keep them with the stack until I need those promos to heal them up quicker.
     
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  3. Lunitis

    Lunitis Chieftain

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    One more question.
    One city i conquered revolted. I know that while i have a low culture in the city it has a chance to revolt. What makes it flip or not? How likely is that a revolting city will flip? There is any formula? I was searching but i couldnt find the answer. ty
     
  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I'm not sure the formula. I think a city will auto-flip on the 3rd revolt, but not totally sure. Some other factors may be involved, like the size and amount of culture or lack thereof. You can lower the revolt risk by the amount of units in that city - down to 0%. More advance units - relative - lower revolt risk more than less advanced units.

    Again, I would advise that worrying about that game is not productive for you now. Things like revolt risk are good to know, but really far from what you should be concerned about now. I advise starting another game. While you are indeed acclimating yourself to the feel of the game, you are basically just reinforcing bad habits in a game that is not going well.
     
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  5. Lunitis

    Lunitis Chieftain

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    Im still having fun with this game, learning is important, but having fun is even more :)
    War was getting hard, Gilgamesh has very strong defensive archers, i couldnt take his cities even having only 2 archers in each, and when i saw an elephant (might have traded it) i just asked for a ceasefire :sad: until i rearm myself with stronger units. I like to see that the enemies can put up a good fight, was so funny to see his boats sailing after my weaked boats all around the world map like cat and rat. :lol:
    Was interesting to know that taking/maintaining cities isnt very easy and its harsh on the economy, i passed from 2nd to 4º position in the rank. With the army i have i would just run all over Gilgamesh if it was a TW game .

    Questions that arise..
    - One of my spies just disappeared, i know that they can be captured while performing an action in a city, but this one was just moving through the enemy territory and after some time when i went looking for him he was nowhere to be found! What could have happened?!
    - The other civs can also win the game by reaching a victory condition? Does the game has an end date after which you just loose because you couldnt take a goal?
     
  6. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    - Spies have a chance per turn of getting caught when inside other civ’s borders. The chance is relative to espionage ratio with that civ.

    - Well, technically the end date is 2050AD. (Turn 500 in normal). At that point a time victory is awarded to the leader with the highest score.
     
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  7. Lunitis

    Lunitis Chieftain

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    Its possible to see that chance % somewhere?

    I was watching Chris67132 vids on youtube. He trades lotss of technologies and stuff with other civs i never do that (the ones they propose are like, i offer you a 50 science technology and you give me a 200 science technology so i tell them .i.), i have to learn how to trade. Better to trade with the smaller civs no? Dont want to give stuff to the biggest civ...
     
  8. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Honestly, not sure, but I recall reading something about how the calculation is worked in a guide or something. I think a big part is the ratio of EPs to the target AI. The more that ratio is in their favor they greater the chance that your spies might get caught.. Enemy spies on the same tile increase it quite a bit too. Overall, the chance is on the very low side generally unless those factors mentioned are really against you.

    So, spies don't make reliable scouting units. Best to use them for a mission as soon as you can. They return to the capital if successful. Also, note that you can use them defensively as well by parking one in your cities, as it will decrease success odds for the enemy missions. Mainly I might keep one in my cap, since it is often targeted, and maybe a border city. (just keep in mind that when you build spies your spending hammers that could go elsewhere..they do make decent two pop whippers)

    (Note: Great Spies cannot be caught)

    Chris's (AbsoluteZero on the forums) videos have helped a lot of folks learn, including me. You should know though that his games are primarily on Deity difficulty, which is much harder than even Immortal - the second highest difficulty. The point being is that Deity plays a bit different and requires some unique tactics that don't always apply to lower levels like Noble. (tech trading and setting up trade is vital to success on Deity)

    As for tech trading, it is a key component of the game. It will take time for you to get used to the nuances of trading efficiently, but I will point out a few things. So here are some things to keep in mind:

    1) Tech trading is a key feature in advancing in the game. The higher difficulty you play the more important it becomes. Take Noble, for instance. I know you are new, but Noble is actually a really easy level once you learn and master some key basics. AIs tech much slower than higher levels, so tech trading becomes less a factor. Not that you don't still trade some techs, but you should absolutely blow the AIs away. If, for some reason, I'm playing a game on Noble - like a Game of the Month - tech trading generally is more about trading old techs for chunks of gold...although early I might backfill some techs here and there unless I get techs in peace, which is quite common.

    2) AIs generally don't offer fair deals (on paper)...but there is also the cost/benefit to trading. You might tech something like Alpha, which obviously enables tech trading in the first place, and decide to trade it for Iron Working, Maths, and some other techs with several AIs. Alpha is worth more that IW and Maths alone, but you have traded one tech around for techs as a whole that are worth far more. (note: on noble you are unlikely to trade alpha early if you are first to it)

    3) Keep in mind Monopoly techs. If an AI has say Monarchy, but no other known leader has Monarchy, that AI will have a monopoly on that tech. If so, that tech is worth more to them, so they will not trade it away to the human at face value. Heck, they may not even trade it away for something like Currency which is worth far more. So just keep that in mind when looking at trade deals.

    4) It requires some micro-ing, but there are ways to tell when and approximately how far an AI has teched a particular tech. First off, as mentioned, you will likely focus EPs on a single AI - usually one of the big techers like a Mansa, Pacal, or Willem. Once you reach enough EP you can see what they are teching. You can also compare deals in the diplomacy dialogue with a leader.

    -here is an example I often use - granted on much higher levels. I have teched Alpha. No one else has Alpha. Most everyone has Iron Working(something I rarely tech myself) and some have Maths , and other small techs I have ignored like Archery. I compare a trade of Alpha to IW with every leader I know. They will give me IW and ..say..Archery for it. I do not execute any of these trades as I know no one is teching Alpha right now. I can compare with Maths too, which is generally more of a one to one trade. I will compare this same trade each turn. Then on turn X, a leader is now only giving me IW but not Archery. I know he/she has started Alpha. So I now execute the Alpha for IW trade with him, and also trade Alpha for Maths with a leader of choice, because, well, I've just opened up another tech trader anyway by the Alpha-IW trade, so might as well get Maths for it too.

    5) Currency is an important tech as I have mentioned. Besides all the good benefits from this tech, it also adds a new aspect to tech trading - gold. Not only can you get gold from tech trading, but you can further use that gold for trade comparisons as mentioned in point #4. It actually allows you to more fine tune the trade deals comparisons, because gold is factored in. You can better estimate how far an AI has teched a particular trade, as you can see the amount of gold he might offer as part of the deal decrease. Currency also allows you to trade older useless techs for bits of gold as well.

    6) Lastly, a very important thing about teching and trading in general, is that there are definitely what I call "AI priority" techs. In other words, there are techs/tech paths that AI's always tend to prioritize. I mean, at some point an AI will tech are trade for just about any tech, but they far more prioritize certain techs in the game. This is important to know as it allows the human to work around this fact, teching techs that AIs prioritize less first, so that you can trade for those techs later. Here are an example of priority techs:

    Early religious techs (especially by zealots - think Isabel)
    Archery (on higher levels AIs start with this tech...I rarely ever tech Archery myself or even trade for it, unless I'm going for Horse Archers)
    Iron Working (new players often make the mistake of teching IW..very easy to trade for it later. It is a very expensive tech that a lot of inexperience players waste a great deal of beakers early teching as they think it gives them some advantage..no)
    Mathematics
    Alpha (not always, but usually at least one AI will go after it, and once they have essentially tech trading is opened up)
    Monarchy
    Calendar
    Feudalism
    Machinery
    Engineering
    Guilds
    (any tech with something free, like a great person or new religion, will be prioritize by at least someone at some point)

    Now, again, keep in mind that when playing on Noble you are dealing with a much slower overall tech pace, so you may have to self-tech some of these techs..highly likely really. However, you need to ask yourself if you really need a certain tech now or if it can wait. You can also get techs from peace deals.

    One other related thing to keep in mind regarding tech trading is the "We fear you are becoming too advanced) factor. Basically, each leader has a threshold on number of tech trades over time, and some are more willing too trade than others. For instance, Mansa always trades and his presence in a game is a big boost for the human. So to point, be wary of just trading for all the little cheap techs out there like Archery, because each of those trades adds to this threshold. You want to be judicious in your tech trades. Take the little techs like Meditation, Priesthood, Polytheism or sometimes even Mysticism. As recommended, you avoided them early on as they are not optimal for the human to tech early. However, you may want them at some point as they open up other techs or wonders. Better not, generally speaking, to trade for them. At the point you actually need them, your economy should be in such a position that you can likely tech them yourself in 1 turn, or you can pick on some pansy AI and sue for the techs in peace (which does not count toward that WFYABTA threshold.)



    I see where you are going with this question, but size of the civ does not matter much at all. I know you are thinking, well they are big, so I don't want to help them out. First, the most important thing for you to keep in mind here is that you are the human. You are making decision using rational human logic as opposed to the coded AI. Yeah, they get tougher and tougher as difficulty level increase, but they are still AI. The decisions you make are the ones that pertain to your overall goals and strategy. Second, if by big you mean a) # of of cities and/or b) score on the scoreboard, that doesn't necessarily translate to the AI teching faster than another. Mansa can still far out-tech civs much bigger than him. (With that said, larger empire - human or AI, snowball later into generally more effectiveness in all regards)

    What is more important in this decision, is making trade that work for you with respect to the logic that I outlined above - and your goals.. Also, keep in mind the relationships of AIs to each other. There may indeed be a particular leader that I avoid trading with because he/she is widely hated, or you plan to target them. Still, if you are analyzing trade deals frequently, there is usually no issue executing a deal if a leader is about to finish the tech anyway.

    Of course, you want to be very judicious about executing trades of techs you have a monopoly on yourself. Likewise, you might avoid trading away a tech that can give..well...any AI an advantage relative to the era that you would like to keep for yourself as long as possible, especially a military advantage.

    Tech trading also helps boost diplomatic relations. When you first meet an AI, for instance, if you gift any tech or make a somewhat unbalanced trade in their favor, you will get a +4 fair trade bonus. (this degrades over time but can be constantly refreshed/improved with further tech trading/gifting) In addition, and it is different for each AI, but after a certain number of trades with an AI you will get a "you share your technologies with us" diplo bonus that never goes away, and can increase.

    (On another note, I should point out that resource trades - over time - will give you up to a +2 "we appreciate the years you have shared resource" bonus..so trading resources as soon as you can is a good thing)

    Lastly, I will point out two related observations relative to your experience at this time:

    1) You are still quite new to the game. Even at Noble, things seem daunting. You think how can I keep up with the AIs in technology? Why would I trade or give away techs when I'm "apparently" losing? Again, as mentioned before, that is just because you still have much basic stuff to learn yet, and once you do you will dominate these Noble AIs.

    2) The overall game tech pace increases dramatically as you move up to higher difficulties, so tech trading decisions become far more important and timely. When you get to..say.. Immortal difficulty, and especially Deity, it just very important to analyze these trade decisions more frequently.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    On another note, I know I have mentioned slavery/whipping a lot. I assume you have probably whipped something at this point. ("Whipping" is the term we use for using citizens, via the Slavery civic, to finish production)

    However, you likely have little understanding of the single most powerful component of the game. Honestly, it takes quite some time to really master the use of this feature. (heck, I still learn things after about 10 years with the game) It is certainly much more than randomly finishing builds in a city by whipping.

    A while ago for some other new players, I posted some links to several slavery primers I created - 3 to be exact. The link I'm providing below is to a post where I linked the other 3 posts, with some explanation therein. The 3 posts, while somewhat redundant, all provide explanations and examples of uses of the slavery/whipping mechanic, and its benefits. When you get the chance, you can read through some it and practice it...and at least will have the links as a reference for later as well. The use of whipping and whip overflow is even more advance and complex then I have outlined in these posts, but the primary purpose was to provide those players some basic understanding of the concepts to get them started and on the right track.

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/going-from-noble-tooo.468987/#post-11671673
     
  10. Lunitis

    Lunitis Chieftain

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    Yes i used spies successfully in missions, basic stuff like stealing money but now i realized that if i dont have X EPs i dont have as much info from the enemy civ (demographics and such) so maybe its not very worth it to use them in "random missions".

    Wow trading is much deeper than i expected, nice tricks.

    I was researching about whipping already and saw those posts, its a bit complex, but its a good start.

    Thanks again for the deep explanation.
     
  11. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    My pleasure....

    Yeah, actually running spies yourself on Noble does not have much value. Just using the EPs passively for information is fine for now. Those hammers can be spend on more important things like units to kill people. You could play around with the city revolt mission though, when attacking.

    It can indeed be complex, but the information is all there if willing to do the math, and it is very easy to practice the basic stuff. My first whips generally involve 2 pop whips of a settler with max overflow into a new worker. Settlers and workers are great ways of turning FOOD into Production, because those units are actually partly built with food.

    In Civ IV, FOOD = PRODUCTION
     
  12. Lunitis

    Lunitis Chieftain

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    Is there a way to see/know the odds to win a fight? I know its possible to see that when im at war with someone, but when im not at war i cant see the odds of an unit vs other unit. I was preparing to start a new war, gather a bunch of units, attacked a city that had only two longbowman and my units despite having higher strength have like 1% win chance to win even after taking down city defenses. Frustrating ass !)/"(!/%!)()"=/!
    I understand they have some XP upgrades, and my units not that much, but its hard anyway! Looks like you need a big tech advantage or spend all your army to be able to take down a city with just a couple archers.
    Anyway... back to the point. How can i know the odds? Its there something ingame? An app online to test unit vs unit? Or simply a rule of thumb to know when you have good odds or not?
    If i knew any better i wouldnt get into stupid wars.

    Meanwhile i checked this page:
    https://apolyton.net/forum/civilization-iv/civilization-iv-general/155903-the-civ-iv-combat-system

    Its cool to know the system, but i dont think i can get a good approximation from the top of my head even knowing the equation.
     
  13. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I don't think so..although from experience you can get an idea. Still, it's irrelevant imo having this knowledge. If you have the right army makeup, that city should be no problem. Keep in mind that the siege you use to lower city defense can do a lot of collateral damage on attack. That is what siege is for and siege is expendable. Throw a few cats or trebs at the LBs to soften them up.

    I'd like to know what you mean by higher strength too. What units are these you are using. LBs are one of the toughest units pound for pound in the game on city defense. They are adequate defenders even up through Curs/Cavs and Rifles. Granted that is head to head, but siege is the deal, or straight mounted warfare. LBs have innate city defense bonus which increase their strength 25% in a city, as well as a first strike and 25% hill defense (AIs love to settle on hills). AIs tend to give them City Garrison promos, or Guerrilla sometimes, if city is on a hill, which further elevates their overall city strength considerable. And then you have the leaders with the Protective trait so you likely have them popping out archers/LBs with, as they will have barracks, with at least City Garrison II. So that is +65% city defense on them right there. Then you have Sitting Butt with his Totem Poles popping out City Garrison III LBs.

    So LBs are tough customers. You need to soften them up or use stronger mounted units like Curs, en masse, to attack fast. Curs ignore wall based defense modifiers and are immune to first strikes.

    Still, on Noble level, for a large part of the game you should not even be facing Long Bows.

    So, again, with more experience and proper scouting, you will get more accustomed to understanding the type of army you need to take out an AI at a given point in time. Knowing one to one odds of Unit X to Unit Y does not really matter pre-war, as you are going to have the right army makeup, and siege will do a lot of the work for you. Do not be afraid to lose cats, trebs, cannons, etc., but build more, of course, as needed.

    And, no, you don't really need a huge tech advantage either on LBs. Elies and cats are fine against them and you can get those units in the BCs. Granted, on Noble, AIs will not have Feudalism likely to well well into the ADs.
     
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  14. Lunitis

    Lunitis Chieftain

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    I was using Pikeman, Heavy Footman (8 strenght), Catapult, Trebuchet, Horseman. I was going with like 6 or 7 units to attack a city. Guess i need 5 or 6 catapults to soft them first..
    Game ist lost, Celts already made 2 vassals, they are getting close :mischief:
    Soon will start a new game. Learned a lot with this one.
     
  15. Lunitis

    Lunitis Chieftain

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    One questiona about obsolete.
    I want to research Astronomy for the naval units (archipelago map) but i have the colossus + financial líder so im not sure about that..
    If i delay Astronomy and some AI gets it would it make my colossus obsolete? Or only when i research it myself?
     
  16. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Financial lider?


    Colosus obsoletes once you tech Astro. Astro is pretty important on an archipelago map, depending on what you want to do.
     
  17. Lunitis

    Lunitis Chieftain

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    Leader*. When i was writing the word i had the feeling that something was wrong, englishiz ftw

    Cant wait to get my hands on those "pirate" boats.
     
  18. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Ah..I was on my phone at the time and did not see the accent on the "i"..ha

    Pirate boats can be kinda fun. Generally a waste of time on higher levels, but on noble you can play around with them.
     
  19. Lunitis

    Lunitis Chieftain

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    I was reading somewhere that the AI is kinda useless in naval invasion. They are looking very passive indeed in the archipelago. Is that a vanila game problem only? Or it still happens in BTS with the mods?
    Would be good to know so that i avoid to play this kind of map if the AI is useless .
     
  20. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Well, AIs can certainly attack with navies. Keep in mind that you are playing Noble, so the AIs are generally more passive. Still, AIs can do some bizarre stuff with naval attacks like sending over a stack of cats or otherwise outdated units. Depends on their proximity. Sometimes AIs will plot on a watery type map. Prepare a stack of X units and send them out to the plot target that may be quite far away. By the time the reach the target, those units are outdated. Yet, you can sometimes get surprised by a reasonable force or they attack a weak city if you are not paying attention.

    Archipelogos require a certain approach generally and overall. Not really the best map for learning at your stage.
     
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