The Nutjobs Are Destroying Town Hall Meetings On Healthcare

[BasketCase]

Not at all. They're average pollsters.

And even if their margin of error was larger, CNN still got the 2008 elections almost exactly right.

 

[Earthling]

I can't read it if it doesn't exist.

You claimed I said something which I definitely did not say. End of discussion.

I never claimed you said exactly any words verbatim. However, you did claim that the 2008 election had some flaw in regards to procedure similar to this online poll. Perhaps you were claiming that non-US citizens could vote, or underaged individuals could vote, or something else that should be invalid in an election, yet clearly possible in the aforementioned poll, of which I presented one possibility. Feel free to admit that what Bill is saying here is right, and you were off-base.

I'm pretty sure that political elections are different in purpose than opinion polls.

They didn't contest it because no one is paying attention to it because it's a self-selected internet poll. It's completely worthless.

 

[BasketCase]

Random side note #11857-C:

For everybody who's posting paranoid conspiracy theories claiming that these town hall protests are being organized by right-of-center political groups:

What the hell do you think MoveOn.org is?? It's the very same thing, except that it's left-of-center instead of right. An organization that spouts propaganda and organizes protests.

If it was okay for MoveOn.org to be talking smack at George Bush and organizing protests against him, then it's okay for conservative political groups to organize protests against health care deform at town hall meetings today.

I'm going to say it again: most people don't actually care about fair debate or orderly meetings. It's the target they care about. They want those in favor of health care deform to be free to speak without interruption, and they want to silence those opposed to health care deform. Period.

 

[BasketCase]

I never claimed you said exactly any words verbatim.

Your apology is accepted.

However, you did claim that the 2008 election had some flaw in regards to procedure similar to this online poll.

No, I did not. I said CNN's online poll has a similarity, NOT A FLAW. I said that CNN's online poll closely resembles a real election, and NOT in terms of flaws. A real election is one where you have to get off your butt and either walk to a polling booth or fill out a mail-in ballot. You have to actively participate. Whereas most random polls blindside people who never know about it until the phone rings.

The United States DOES NOT use a random poll to actually choose a President and Congressmen, Earthling. Why do you suppose that is....? It's not a flaw, it's intentional. The American People set up our election system that way on purpose. And CNN's "Report Card" on Obama is the same. You have to actively participate.

Feel free to admit that what Bill is saying here is right, and you were off-base.

Go to hell. Bill3000 is wrong and off-base.

 

[Earthling]

I didn't apologize, because I was not wrong. So here's the main point: do you deny that the fact that the online poll allowed such things as multiple votes, votes by non-citizens, votes by children, and anything similar makes it different from a real election for a political office? If you are revising your claim to say that none of these things did occur in the election, then your position must be that you think such things have no statistical effect on representing the views of the population, hence you continue to claim they are similar or the same. Or, you will admit you are wrong and the methodology of such an online poll is not a fair or accurate sample of the population.

No, I did not. I said CNN's online poll has a similarity, NOT A FLAW. I said that CNN's online poll closely resembles a real election, and NOT in terms of flaws.

Also, you did indeed strongly imply that the election had a flaw. Here's the definition of the word neither:

nei⋅ther  /ˈniðər, ˈnaɪ-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [nee-ther, nahy-]

–conjunction 1. not either, as of persons or things specified (usually fol. by nor): Neither John nor Betty is at home.
2. nor; nor yet; no more: Bob can't go, and neither can I. If she doesn't want it, neither do I.

–adjective 3. not either; not the one or the other: Neither statement is true.

–pronoun 4. not either; not one person or the other; not one thing or the other: Neither of the suggestions will do. Neither is to be trusted.

Neither was the 2008 election.

Did you see anybody contest it? No. Now get off my (basket) case.

 

[BasketCase]

I didn't apologize, because I was not wrong.

You were mind-bogglingly brain-bleedingly wrong. I'd say you were off base, but that would be like saying the ocean is a little moist. You were not merely off base, you were in the wrong time zone.

Yes, that was excessive, but I enjoyed it.

So here's the main point: do you deny that the fact that the online poll allowed such things as multiple votes, votes by non-citizens, votes by children, and anything similar makes it different from a real election for a political office?

Do you deny that the 2008 election allowed such things?

Gotcha. I just crushed you with ONE line of text. (My personal best was winning an argument with sixteen letters of text, but that was way back when 9600 baud over a phone line was considered fast)

CNN is not alone in the cold here. Polls by several major polling organizations show widespread disapproval of Obama's health care plan. The same polls DO show that most Americans think the system needs repairs--but they're saying that Obama is doing it wrong, and so the town hall protests you guys are whining about are not the actions of a noisy few, and they are not the result of right-wing political groups.

They are mainstream protests.


Random side note:

Also, you did indeed strongly imply that the election had a flaw. Here's the definition of the word neither:

Don't ever pull this crap around me. I call it "fling the dictionary", and it's something people do when they've lost an argument. And it's something you'll never catch me doing.

 

[BasketCase]

Unrelated topic: one of the often-pointed-out problems with American health care is that we seem to spend a larger percentage of our national GDP on it.

So here's the question: how much of our spending on health care is for elective procedures (such as a stomach stapling to slim down that fat wobbing Wisconsin-sized spare tire?) Yet another way we could fix the system without some idiot in Washington DC doing a complete overhaul of the whole thing.

 

[Earthling]

Do you deny that the 2008 election allowed such things?

Yes

(Just dismissed your unsound logic you with three characters of text. And again, we're back to you being the one who should provide proof that such practices occurred, yet alone had a significant effect, in the 2008 election, and why that would be similar to this online poll.)

But then again, I can imagine you, sitting in the second basement (yes, not even the first basement, something suitable for maybe poor migrant farmworkers society has rejected to live in) of some housing complex laughing to yourself. You scour the Internet seeking to argue with anyone whom you can't convince to share your insane worldviews. All the while, you can never release yourself from that incessant feeling of the bugs, nay, alien lifeworms that have been placed under your skin by the government, or liberals, or whomever you hate today. The thousands of scratches on your horrific, blotched complexion only are temporary soothed by the grease from the chitlins you eat, unable and unwilling to adopt a healthier lifestyle. Truly, if anything, it is most certainly I who should pity you, but I fear you are beyond redemption. (Though there is hope that some part of you, maybe a burgeoning bipolar identity, realizes this and allows you to call yourself a basketcase.) So go in peace, there is nothing further I can do to help you understand; you would not believe me.

 

[Formaldehyde]

If it was okay for MoveOn.org to be talking smack at George Bush and organizing protests against him, then it's okay for conservative political groups to organize protests against health care deform at town hall meetings today.

As far as I know, nobody is claiming they shouldn't be heard. Nobody is claiming they shouldn't be able to protest outside the town hall meetings as much as they wish just like everybody else. However, the far right was deliberately trying to sabotage those meetings for a while by shouting down anybody with whom they disagreed. This basic fact was stated in the OP, is reflected in the subject bar, and has been repeated incessantly in this thread, so I assume you are deliberately ignoring it.

I'm going to say it again: most people don't actually care about fair debate or orderly meetings.

Now there's some more delicious irony...

 

[jessiecat]

Unrelated topic: one of the often-pointed-out problems with American health care is that we seem to spend a larger percentage of our national GDP on it.

Considering more than half the cost in American health care goes in insurance company premiums and profits and esp, when you factor in the enormous amounts that go to protect doctors from malpractice suits, are you really surprised the US spends a higher percentage of GDP? Fortunately our systems don't work like that so a much higher proportion of money spent goes on health care and health prevention. If you really prefer a system that gives a greater weight to company profits than patient care then you're welcome to it. Don't expect the rest of the world to follow suit.

 

[BasketCase]

Yes

(Just dismissed your unsound logic you with three characters of text.

Three characters which happen to be wrong.

America's Presidential elections DO suffer from "such things as multiple votes, votes by non-citizens, votes by children, and anything similar" as you put it. Such accusations were levelled at PRESIDENT BUSH, both in 2000 and in 2004, I'm pretty sure you don't need a link because you're probably one of the people who accused Bush of sabotaging those elections.

But your incessant blabbing is all basically moot, because many other polling organizations, such as Gallup, agree with CNN: a majority of Americans disapprove of Obama's handling of health care.

As far as I know, nobody is claiming they shouldn't be heard.

Key part boldfaced. As far as YOU know. There are a whole lot of people who do in fact want the town hall protesters silenced.

Nobody is claiming they shouldn't be able to protest outside the town hall meetings as much as they wish just like everybody else. However, the far right was deliberately trying to sabotage those meetings for a while

Once again: liberals were deliberately trying to sabotage George Bush's speeches in the same way. Yet you and many others react differently. Proving that you (and many others) don't give a crap about honest debate at all. Your reaction (and the reactions of many others) to a protest depends on the target. If the target is Obama, you consider the protest a bad thing. If the target is Bush, you consider it a good thing.

Double-standard. Period.

Considering more than half the cost in American health care goes in insurance company premiums and profits and esp, when you factor in the enormous amounts that go to protect doctors from malpractice suits, are you really surprised the US spends a higher percentage of GDP? Fortunately our systems don't work like that so

Absolutely. One of America's problems is malpractice lawsuits.

Sooooo.....tell me, how do "your systems" solve that problem?

 

[BasketCase]

Random observation #918842-B:

Liberals had just as much opportunity to cheat on CNN's "Report Card" polls as conservatives did. We need only take a close look at YOU, THE MEMBERS OF CFC. Most of you are liberals, and you have as many cell phones and computers as anybody else. In fact, just by reading this I am proved right--you need a computer to read this post, so if you're reading it you have a computer, and if you have a computer and a little knowledge of the Internet, you can drum up multiple votes easily.

This is kind of a moot point. I only posted it because (A) it's true, and (B) it's annoying. As the old saying goes, the truth hurts......

CNN's method may not have been as scientific as Gallup, but it is still an accurate reflection of public opinion. The fact that many different polls by many different pollsters gave the same results as CNN, is proof.

The voters disapprove of Obama's handling of health care, and that's the end of it.