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The Official Erik Mesoy KOs Religio-Morality Thread!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Erik Mesoy, Jun 17, 2005.

  1. Erik Mesoy

    Erik Mesoy Core Tester / Intern

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    Based on Perfection's famous thread, which I'n sure I don't need to point to...

    The claim is generally phrased in one of these ways:
    "There were no morals before <religion X>"
    "Morality does not exist outside of <religion Y>
    "All the evil and loss of morality in our society is directly tied to increased secularisation and the destruction of <religion Z>"
    Sometimes evolution is mentioned too.

    REFUTATION 1:
    (This particular Necronomicon is 3500-4500 years old.)



    REFUTATION 2: The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis.

    I'm lazy, go read it yourself, good night. :p


    Oh, and I'm back here at CFC OT. I hope you like my posting frenzy. I'll probably be handing this thread over to someone else just as soon as I get bored with it; hopefully I can at least reduce the number of claims like the ones I listed above. Because they annoy me.
     
  2. stormbind

    stormbind Retenta personam!

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    Much better: The Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis :)
     
  3. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    I had to laugh a bit when I saw the thread title. :lol:

    But just so I get this straight, this is a thread to prove that morality exists independent, outside and before religion, and therefore does not need to be part of a religion?
     
  4. CruddyLeper

    CruddyLeper Unworshipped Deity

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    That's a refutation is it? A quote even more out of date than Republican campaign promises and a book written by a bloke that was clearly off his nut.

    Hmm. I can see you're going to be really tricky.
     
  5. Mise

    Mise isle of lucy

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    Of course morality exists independently of religion :crazyeye: You can follow every moral rule in the bible but still not believe in God and hence be moral without being religious...
     
  6. Taliesin

    Taliesin Puttin' on the Ritz

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    Um... you might want to be careful about disparaging the usefulness of ancient moral texts, especially those from which somewhat less ancient texts are mostly derived. Oh, and also about insulting the sanity of one of the 20th century's most respected Christian apologists.

    Just some friendly advice.
     
  7. Keirador

    Keirador Deity

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    How about objective morality? Do you believe that exists outside religion?
     
  8. SeleucusNicator

    SeleucusNicator Diadoch

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    I would argue that a belief in objective morality is very similar to belief in a religion; i.e., while you can have somebody believe in objective morality without that person believing in a god, the kind of belief necessary for both is very similar and, in that sense, morality is very much like religion.
     
  9. cgannon64

    cgannon64 BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!

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    I'd like to pose a question to the Athiests who have a definite set of morals: Are these morals just for you, or for everyone? If they are just for you, why not for everyone else? If they are for everyone, why don't you chasten those who do not follow them?
     
  10. Taliesin

    Taliesin Puttin' on the Ritz

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    Maybe the atheist's set of principles includes a stipulation not to impose them on others. Good atheists typically don't have morals. Instead, they attempt to live ethically, which has nothing to do with forcing other people to follow discrete edicts.
     
  11. cgannon64

    cgannon64 BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!

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    Why wouldn't the athiest impose his morals on someone else? Not impose, but why wouldn't he at least beleive that they should follow the same morals? What makes them good for the athiest and not for every other person?

    Ethical living involves following a set of morals, does it not? Maybe not the Ten Commandments, and maybe not any set of morals that has been codified, but it still involves morals.

    Living ethically, I presume, means forcing yourself to follow discrete edicts - whether made by others or by yourself, that is irrelevant. Why wouldn't these discrete edicts be right for other people?
     
  12. Micaelis Rex

    Micaelis Rex Prince

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    I really don't have time for this, but this is just rediculous. How can you say that morality exists outside of religion without defining morality? What exactly is moral, what is not moral, who decides what is and what is not moral, and on whose authority do they decide it?

    As for your first refutation, are you saying that because this guy rejected his (apparently corrupt) religion, his morals exist outside of religion at large? That is quite a jump in logic. A person's sense of what is right and what is wrong is affected by far more than the religion popular to his time and place. His values were passed to him from somewhere, more likely a mentor(s). What is to say that these mentor's values did not come from a relationship with God? Even if they didn't, you can go back another generation. You see what I'm getting at - you assume that because one's values are not derived from a certain religion that they are not derived from God.

    As for your second argument, I am not familiar with that book. If you'd like to post something on it, feel free and I'll respond to that.
     
  13. WillJ

    WillJ Coolness Connoisseur

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    Um, what makes you think we don't chasten those who don't follow them?
     
  14. cgannon64

    cgannon64 BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!

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    Hmm, I suppose atheists do that, but they don't ever seem to suggest that their own morality should be followed.

    Instead, I've only seen them chasten people who don't follow their own moral code, and them some mumbling about not imposing values.
     
  15. WillJ

    WillJ Coolness Connoisseur

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    I can't speak for all atheists, but I'll do so anyway. When it comes to morality, we tend to adopt a live-and-let-live attitude, which in a way could be construed as "not imposing values," but it's really an imposition of values in and of itself, which many people don't seem to realize. When atheists ramble on about not imposing moral values, we're only considering moral values that only concern oneself (making the moral decision to not eat ham, for example)---most atheists certainly don't think murderers should be released from prison, for example.
     
  16. Micaelis Rex

    Micaelis Rex Prince

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    OK, you're saying that your "morality" should be forced on others when it comes to society, for example, making murder illegal. That is objective morality. Who decides what is and what is not objectively moral?
     
  17. cgannon64

    cgannon64 BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!

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    But, if the person considers himself immoral if he eats ham, why wouldn't he consider everyone who eats ham immoral? And if he does, why wouldn't he say that? Because it is impolite? If his morality is less important than manners, is it really morality?
     
  18. CruddyLeper

    CruddyLeper Unworshipped Deity

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    I thought Egyptian Necronomicon was more of a how to guide for mummies.

    I think I'm getting him mixed up with the Alice in Wonderland guy.

    Always welcome. Although not always followed.
     
  19. WillJ

    WillJ Coolness Connoisseur

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    Two things: 1. I'm not saying what I think, I'm saying what we atheists tend to think. 2. That's not necessarily objective morality. Why couldn't it be subjective?
    The atheists I speak of, which I believe are the majority of atheists, do not think it's immoral to eat ham. And they don't think it's immoral to think otherwise, just incorrect. But they do think it's immoral to think otherwise and act on those thoughts.
     
  20. cgannon64

    cgannon64 BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!

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    But, how can one have any kind of morality without having impository values? If you do not beleive your values are universal, what are they?

    Anyway, do you really beleive that imposing moral values is wrong? Don't you support laws banning murder and rape and all those nasty things? Isn't that imposing your moral values? The only reason it doesn't seem like that is that your values, in those cases, are nearly-universally held values. But you still support imposing them, and I imagine if they weren't universal, you would support imposing them on others.
     

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