The Offtopicgrad Soviet: A Place to Discuss All Things Red

[Ajidica]

I was under the impression that Engles was quite wealthy due to inheriting a few mills and more-or-less supported Marx as he was writing.

Also, I found an interesting BBC opinion piece on the modern day CPUSA.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26126325

 

[Agent327]

I was under the impression that Engles was quite wealthy due to inheriting a few mills and more-or-less supported Marx as he was writing.

Correct: the founder of Communism was supported by a capitalist - who would need to be executed because of being a capitalist and therefore by definition an enemy of the people.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

That's a lot to chew on, Gary. Thanks for doing the legwork.

FWIW, "Human Rights Watch" is no friend of the worker. Cuba, Venezuela, China, Vietnam... They mention "human rights" violations.there, where, to be honest, I think they are FOS. But, again, this is not.based on independent research of mine.

As for an electoral system, let me run this by you:

usconstitution.net [/URL]] Though the term is never used in the Constitution itself, the electors that choose the President at each election are traditionally called a College. In the context of the Constitution, the meaning ofcollegeis not that of a school, but of a group of people organized toward a common goal.

The Electoral College insulates the election of the President from the people by having the people elect not the person of the President, but the person of an Elector who is pledged to vote for a specific person for President. Though the ballot may read "John McCain" or "Barack Obama," you're really voting for "John Smith" who is a McCain supporter or "Jack Jones" who is an Obama supporter.

The function and details of how the Electoral College meets and how they vote was changed in the12th Amendment. First, a discussion of the original plan, outlined inArticle 2, Section 1, Clauses 2 and 3, then what is different today:

Each state chose anumberof electors equal to thenumberof congress people that state had. Each state, then, got at least three electors (twoSenators and at least one Representative). Electors may not be an employee or elected representative of the Federal Government. Each state was allowed to otherwise choose whomever they wish to be the Electors for that state.
Today, Electors are chosen by popular election, but the Constitution does not mandate a popular election. The14th Amendmentdoes mention the choosing of Electors, but is relevant only when Electors are elected by popular vote. There is similar mention in the24th Amendment.

In other words, Electors could be appointed by a state's legislature, or the legislature could empower the governor to choose electors. In some cases,state lawallows for such appointments if the popular vote cannot be used to determine a winner, such as if election results are contested up to federally-mandated deadlines.

In theory, we can have anyone run, but the practice has always (with few exceptions) been one of two parties, which, imo, are two wings of the same party. Even in theory, the the POTUSA is not elected by a popular general vote.

Can you see what this may look like to the outsider?

In answer to the more philosophical questions of your post, Gary, I do not speak FOR the DPRK, but as a Marxist-Leninist I can say that democracy in a US socialist state would not change too much from what it is, now... But, then, I don't know.

The DPRK system, on its face looks like the system of a besieged workers' government, which it is. In a situation where every structure over one story was bombed off of the face of the nation, and one in five people were killed, I can understand their siege stance... But the people themselves are well-learned, polite, and proud. (At least the ones our folks met in Quito.) But, seeing the mistakes that led to the fall of the USSR, and the Eastern Bloc seems to have galvanized the North Koreans. No one can take your socialism away from you, you have to give it up... And the DPRK ain't giving it up.

To top it off, the US media bombards us with these frightful images of the same military parade footage of marching DPRK soldiers while the US provokes the DPRK with military exercises all the time.

Correct: the founder of Communism was supported by a capitalist - who would need to be executed because of being a capitalist and therefore by definition an enemy of the people.

My movement is also (partially) supported by capitalists, that's where the money is. You think we build offices like those massive structures I posted in Member photos by selling baked goods?

If any misbehave, we send them to Holland for... MEDICAL CARE!

 

[Agent327]

FWIW, "Human Rights Watch" is no friend of the worker. Cuba, Venezuela, China, Vietnam... They mention "human rights" violations.there, where, to be honest, I think they are FOS. But, again, this is not.based on independent research of mine.

Obviously not. Opinions rarely are. Perhaps you'd prefer Human Rights Watch simply to skip over Socialist countries because 'all is well' there?

To top it off, the US media bombards us with these frightful images of the same military parade footage of marching DPRK soldiers while the US provokes the DPRK with military exercises all the time.

Yes, as they did with the Korean War, didn't they? US military presence is actually in response to the perceived threat; that's basically a fundamental tenet of US foreign policy. But I guess you didn't 'research' that either.

My movement is also (partially) supported by capitalists, that's where the money is. You think we build offices like those massive structures I posted in Member photos by selling baked goods?

It's also interesting to note that no Communist regime has produced a female leader - nor even a 50% female Central Committee.

If any misbehave, we send them to Holland for... MEDICAL CARE!

At least we have universal healthcare... Keep up the childish posts, Comrade. Puts your 'movement' in proper perspective.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

My group, as I mentioned, is 2/3 women.

Cuba, China, DPRK, Viet Nam, even non-Communist Russia has universal care... But, then, in none of those nations is it legal for a doctor to kill someone.

And, since all of them have higher rates of voter turnout than Holland, I suppose that makes them more democratic.

 

[Traitorfish]

Must be tiring for people to oppose everything... Nihilism posing as "non-Party" communism must be exhausting.

The Bible was written however many centuries ago, and yet serves as a basis for Christian belief systems in the 21st century.

The Hippocratic Oath is even older, are those principles out of date? Outside of Holland, that is?

I recently retired a 100 year-old steam boiler whose most relevant repair manual was copyrighted in 1898 (first American edition)... The boiler had 100 years of active service until a crack appeared that I could not repair. It's replacement is warranteed for 5 years, and its life expectancy is 25 years.

Not everything old is incorrect. We still breathe the same oxygen Lavoisier discovered in the 18th century.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. Directly comparing the 21 Conditions to Biblical revelation? And you really think that doesn't sound weird?

Correct: the founder of Communism was supported by a capitalist - who would need to be executed because of being a capitalist and therefore by definition an enemy of the people.

And this makes even less sense.

 

[timtofly]

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. Directly comparing the 21 Conditions to Biblical revelation? And you really think that doesn't sound weird?

I did not see that list as comparing the items to each other, but how long the ideals have lasted.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

I did not see that list as comparing the items to each other, but how long the ideals have lasted.

Correct.

No one mentioned the boiler? My hundred year-old boiler?

 

[peter grimes]

Please stop posting nonsense.

Once again, no response to anything I posted. Keep up the good work, Comrade.

Moderator Action: This sort of stuff isn't acceptable in an RD thread. Reply to the content of a post with content, not insults.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[classical_hero]

The Bible was written however many centuries ago, and yet serves as a basis for Christian belief systems in the 21st century.

I think that is a good thing since it is the first book of hygiene. Had people followed the prescriptions of the bible dealing with diseased people, then many outbreaks could have been avoided. http://creation.com/the-first-book-of-public-hygiene

Not everything old is incorrect. We still breathe the same oxygen Lavoisier discovered in the 18th century.

edit: typo... 18th, not 19th century.

This was around before he lived, just that we hadn't discovered it's chemical properties and learn more about it. Just like how Franklin discover Electricity, it was around long before he discovered it and explain it's properties.

 

[Agent327]

And this makes even less sense.

I gather you haven't been following the Madurismo thread, where RT declared opposing views irrelevant because of their class background.

My group, as I mentioned, is 2/3 women.

Yes, I suppose that evens out nicely against all-male state leaderships doesn't it?

Cuba, China, DPRK, Viet Nam, even non-Communist Russia has universal care... But, then, in none of those nations is it legal for a doctor to kill someone.

Why use doctors when you have camps?

And, since all of them have higher rates of voter turnout than Holland, I suppose that makes them more democratic.

No, I don't suppose it does. Voting is a right, so one can choose not to vote. So, once again, voter turnout says noting about a state being democratic. By your standard the Soviet bloc would have been the most democratic in the world. Yet all these democracies simply collapsed. That must be a total mystery to you then, seeing as they had practically universal popular approval.

But why use facts when you have propaganda, right?

 

[Gary Childress]

That's a lot to chew on, Gary. Thanks for doing the legwork.

FWIW, "Human Rights Watch" is no friend of the worker. Cuba, Venezuela, China, Vietnam... They mention "human rights" violations.there, where, to be honest, I think they are FOS. But, again, this is not.based on independent research of mine.

As for an electoral system, let me run this by you:



In theory, we can have anyone run, but the practice has always (with few exceptions) been one of two parties, which, imo, are two wings of the same party. Even in theory, the the POTUSA is not elected by a popular general vote.

Can you see what this may look like to the outsider?

In answer to the more philosophical questions of your post, Gary, I do not speak FOR the DPRK, but as a Marxist-Leninist I can say that democracy in a US socialist state would not change too much from what it is, now... But, then, I don't know.

The DPRK system, on its face looks like the system of a besieged workers' government, which it is. In a situation where every structure over one story was bombed off of the face of the nation, and one in five people were killed, I can understand their siege stance... But the people themselves are well-learned, polite, and proud. (At least the ones our folks met in Quito.) But, seeing the mistakes that led to the fall of the USSR, and the Eastern Bloc seems to have galvanized the North Koreans. No one can take your socialism away from you, you have to give it up... And the DPRK ain't giving it up.

To top it off, the US media bombards us with these frightful images of the same military parade footage of marching DPRK soldiers while the US provokes the DPRK with military exercises all the time.

These are some good points. I agree the US electoral system probably leaves something to be desired in terms of democracy. This was also of course made manifest in the 2000 Presidential election. My inexpert understanding of the electoral college is that it was intended to be a "last line of defense" in case the people were to elect a President who had some sort of political qualities that were "unfitting" of the position. In some senses the framers of the US political system didn't entirely trust "we the people" I guess. So this seems like sort of an aristocratic holdover of sorts. The reasons for the electoral college are vaguely outlined in Federalist Paper Number 68.

I'm guessing a similar case could be made for the election system of the DPRK. Perhaps it is theoretically structured to ensure that Capitalists never gain control of the country and lead it astray from "socialism" or whatever. In some sense I suppose the government of the DPRK doesn't really trust the common people to make the right decisions for their own good anymore than the US does. Rather "experts" are needed to make the right decisions for the aimless and unenlightened masses. Given some of the ideas and attitudes floating around in society at large (prejudice, greed, etc.) it's a bit hard not to agree with this view to some extent. However, one sort of wonders, if the average person is sometimes unable to see what is good for society, what's to guarantee that the "experts" will be any better? Are any of us immune to being wrong at times?

So far there are perhaps some similar comparisons to be made between various aspects of the US and the DPRK, for example both countries imprison people for things other than violent crimes. Both countries are "undemocratic" in certain ways. I would like to think that the US edges the DPRK in some qualities, maybe that is disputable. However, the one thing that doesn't seem very disputable to me is that neither system is ideal. This seems to be Traitorfish's point. I mean so far most of the "defenses" I have seen of the DPRK are along the lines of comparisons between things wrong with the DPRK and corresponding things wrong with the US. In the final analysis I would think a "dictatorship of the proletariat" is dictatorship and not democratic. I believe even Marx believed that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" was only a temporary state of affairs which would eventually lead to some sort of better, "classless" society in which people were more communally conscious or something. If I'm not mistaken I believe he claimed this to be a kind of "scientific" observation, along the lines of Hegel's concepts of historical progression.

Of course the idea of scientific "progress" is something which has come more and more under skepticism since the Enlightenment. To me this may raise some skepticism about some of Marx's claims but I think many of his observations are pretty uncontroversial such as some of his economic analyses of capitalism.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

@Gary: totally forgot about your post. My position on DPRK is unchanged, and has remained consistent.

I think the only fair assessment of a nation's progress is in comparison to what it is now to what it was like before.

When you do that to the US... Well, you see the widening gap between haves and have-nots. Not so with DPRK, as the UN data I cited earlier states.

 

[timtofly]

If you consider that one of the "haves" in the US is drug related, it would seem to balance things out. If we removed all type of drugs from the US market where would some spend all their resources? Where would others gain their accumulated wealth?

 

[luiz]

More on the workers' paradise of North Korea:

PYONGYANG, North Korea (AP) — A funding crunch for aid to North Korea has become so severe 500,000 rural schoolchildren are as of this month no longer receiving assistance and aid to millions more could soon dry up, according to a report obtained by The Associated Press. The report underscores the flight of international donors to countries with less political baggage and more willingness to let aid workers do their jobs.
...
The report, noting statistics that every third North Korean child is stunted and every fifth child is underweight, said it is "very concerned" about the long-term physical and intellectual development of malnourished children. North Korean officials were not available to immediately comment on the contents of the report.
...
Last year, WFP drew up a $200 million, two-year program targeting 2.4 million children and pregnant or nursing mothers. Because of low funding, that was scaled back to 1.63 million children and mothers, and even that appears to be too ambitious.
...
About 16 million North Koreans rely on state-provided rations of cereals. According to the WFP report, North Koreans have been getting larger rations of rice, potatoes and corn over the past two years. In March, the amount provided under the North's Public Distribution System was 410 grams per day, per person. North Korea hopes to increase that to 573 grams.

That's not much. The average American eats about 2,000 grams of food each day.

The bigger problem, however, isn't how much North Koreans eat, but what. According to the WFP report, the average North Korean diet is alarmingly low on fats, proteins, vegetables and fruits.
...
Stunting from chronic malnutrition is as high as 40 percent in some areas, according to the WFP.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/25/north-korea-food-aid_n_5212148.html

Kinda odd that such a great prosperous place embracing the flawless ideas of Marx depends so heavily on charity from the Capitalist world to feed it's own children, no? Or maybe RT would like to argue that this is all a lie, that in fact the food aid which is admitted by the North Korean government does not exist? Some doublethink may be necessary here; on the one hand supporters of NK must demand greater food aid while on the other deny it exists altogether.

Isn't it kind of odd that in South Korea, where workers face the terrible oppression of the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, there is no hunger? That they don't have to beg foreign governments to feed their own population? That you don't see stunted, underweight children everywhere you look? That they actually got substantially taller over the last decades in relation to their cousins in the glorious and free North?

I'm very confused, comrades. From where I'm sitting it's almost as if Capitalism is a billion times more humane and kinder to the lower classes than glorious Marxism-Maoism-Juche-Death Cultism. What am I missing? Or are the supporters of North Korea the ones missing something, namely shame and any sense of human decency?

And because an image is worth a thousand words:

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Funny how some apologists for Capitalism seem to have NO problem and nothing to say about the 1 in 4 children who go to bed hungry in America, where the actual percentage of employable working age (16-65) population is only 62.8% (according to the BLS data NBC spouted on Friday's news.); where utility companies in NJ illegally over-charged NJ customers $5 billion over ten years; where 70,000 people requested emergency assistance (after 2012's Hurricane Sandy) from the wealthiest government on the planet and only 246 actually got assistance; where 1.46 million households earn less than $2 per person per day...

And what is wrong with getting support from Capitalist nations trying to buy off their bourgeois guilt? I get lots of donations that way, but I get more donations from people who cannot stand the Capitalist system and want to end it (see the structures we built in my member photo thread posts).

But the merits of luiz' argument only hold water from a particular perspective, one I do not share. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[amadeus]

My own conclusions are that state planning of the economy has failed miserably as Mises predicted 90 years ago. See the above picture/any reasonable analysis of the two Koreas.

 

[luiz]

Comrade, are you really trying to compare the situation of the US, which has one of the highest living standards on the planet, with that of miserable and starving hell-hole North Korea?

1 in 4 children go to bed hungry in the US? That's the biggest BS I've read in my life. Homeless people are not starving here. The poor are eating too much, not too little. The average American eats about five times as much as the average North Korean.

Only someone without any sense of shame or decency could compare the US, where statistically speaking there is no hunger whatsoever, to North Korea where a bizarre 33% (that is one in 3, comrade) of children are stunted due to malnutrition. Let me repeat that: one in three children are stunted due to malnutrition in the workers' paradise of North Korea. If you say this is in anyway comparable to the US, or any Western country for that matter, you're not an idiot - because nobody is that stupid - you're a malevolent liar.

But go ahead comrade, by all means keep on defending North Korea and show everybody just how evil and disgusting Marxist-Leninists really are. You do the world a service.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

We could always implement socialism. Then we could be rich, rich as North Koreans!

There are things more important than the accumulation of other people's wealth.

Why, we could stop building shrines to war criminals! (Just a start)... And stop making films like "Ichi the Killer."

 

[luiz]

There are things more important than the accumulation of other people's wealth.

Why, we could stop building shrines to war criminals! (Just a start)... And stop making films like "Ichi the Killer."

Making sure one third of our kids are not starving seems pretty important to me. More important than adhering to cretinous and discredited ideologies such as communism.