The Open All Policies Strategy

Jatta Pake

Warlord
Joined
Sep 24, 2007
Messages
299
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Los Angeles
I've started my 2nd BNW game hoping I would soon be getting crushed by the AI. I moved up a level to Emporer and selected Indonesia on Continents Plus (Large map, standard speed, 22 AI Civs and 20 CS). My intent was to get beaten up some as it makes for far more interesting and fun writing. Unfortunately I'm doing way, way better than expected.

Open All Policies Strategy
I am a mediocre civ player. I don't run any of the info mods even though I know these utilities really help. I also avoid mathematics. I know many players calculate all types of minutiae to give themselves an edge over the computer, but I don't play that way. My playstyle is like that of the human hero of a typical sci-fi flick - I like to beat the damn computer robots with human pluck, instinct and gumption.

My first game ended in Fail. I adjusted my strategy and decided to select culture policies in a different way. Rather than work to close out a social policy, I decided that I would go for opening everything. My thought process was this - most policies have some crappy options but all policies have some good stuff. The good stuff is inherently situational. In the middle of a nasty war, the Honor stuff is useful. When you are trying to expand, the Liberty policy is great. When you need some City States, Patronage is awesome.

The problem arises when you are several policies down the Liberty tree and you get faced with a brutal war. You have only two options - open Honor and lose the closing out benefits of Liberty, or bite the bullet and continue closing out Liberty.

My hypothesis is this: Opening every policy doubles your policy options. This doubling of policy options outweighs any benefit of closing out any single policy. Options Over Closing - BNW requires players to be flexible and able to adjust to changing factors within the game. When you start a game you don't know if you are next to Shaka or Ghandi. You don't know if Greece, Austria, or Venice will be in game messing with city states (if you selected default AIs).

Racing through and closing a social policy is inherently inefficient when faced with random variables. You may get lucky and nail the right one. More likely, you will need to maintain strategic flexibility throughout the game rather than be locked into a single strategy because you want the bonus from the policy close out. As it stands though, none of the policy closing bonuses outweigh the benefits of having more situational policy options.

Tradition, Liberty, Honor
This is going to be a bold sentence. But I think the best opening culture path is:
1. Open Tradition
2. Open Liberty
3. Open Honor
In that order. Why? Each opening provides additional Culture. Using your first three policies to increase culture will allow you to get more social policies. Yes, it does make closing out a tree more expensive but why do you need to close out a tree? Opening the three above instantly gives you seven policy options for your fourth policy. And most of the close out bonuses for these trees don't even become available until later in the game. Going to close out Liberty with your first three policies would give you five options for your fourth policy. Two of those options would give you more culture (open Tradition or Honor) that would have helped you get to your fourth policy faster.

I detected some math in the above paragraph. Bad math, but some math anyway. But rest assured my hypothesis is based solely on my gut feelings. I didn't do any math to come up with this optimal strategy. I think BNW optimizes when you don't close out a policy but go for opening as many as you can.

What do you think?
 
I agree with your first two. I disagree with opening honor, the honor opener isn't as good or as reliable. In fact, the liberty opener is nice to get your border expansion in new cities going, but in tall empires the free culture building is better.

Why open liberty at all then (tall > wide in BNW)? Simple: collective rule. You want to expand early on to grab good spots (since peaceful > warmongering, so you don't want to have to fight for the best spots). Unfortunately you don't have the hammers and growth to spare in the early game for settlers. Collective rule gives you a free settler and gives you a production boost for settlers in the capital, which sets you well on your way to your initial 3-5 cities (depending on how good the surrounding area is). To get to collective rule, you have to go through republic which is like an early windmill (5% boost to building productions). Since your early game should be dominated by building production, it's great to get this early.

So the best opener is almost always

Tradition ->Liberty -> Republic -> Collective rule.

Open tradition because the border expansion bonus is nice and +3 culture in the capital effectively means your next policies arrive quicker, so it's effectively a free policy.

From there you can either go for the free worker in liberty if you need it (in which case you might as well go for the free great person and finish liberty) or start down the tradition tree, depending on your needs (you might have already stolen a worker anyway).

But I have found that start to be the most effective.

I recommend opening patronage a bit later on for the forbidden palace (extra delegates, reduces unhappiness in empire by 10%) and opener (reduce city state friendship decay rate).

So my policy order usually goes:

Tradition opener -> Liberty -> Republic -> Collective rule -> (finish liberty or tradition) -> Open patronage -> Open rationalism -> Complete rationalism tree -> Spend culture on tenets
 
Each policy you choose increases the cost of your next policy pretty substantially. I can see a case being made for tradition + honor or tradition + liberty if flexibility is very important, although this will still slow overall policy progression. The biggest problem I see is that the really good policies in each of those trees are two levels down. Its hard to get to the good stuff if you blow too many policy picks on the surface.

Also Jatta, is this why you haven't posted about your new game yet? Because you're embarrassed about winning? Jatta, I think I speak for all of us when I say that even if you mess up and win occasionally, we still love you.
 
I disagree. Honor opener provides a boatload of culture in the early game. It helps your starting warrior kill barbs and clear camps for early cash. Going Honor for your third policy gets you through your policies faster (via more culture) while opening up the first level of Honor options (like Warrior Code). You will need Warrior Code if you have Shaka as a neighbor.

But you raise some great considerations.
 
I'm pretty sure it's been mathematically proven that opening with tradition if trying to go for collective rule takes longer than going straight for it.
 
Each policy you choose increases the cost of your next policy pretty substantially. I can see a case being made for tradition + honor or tradition + liberty if flexibility is very important, although this will still slow overall policy progression. The biggest problem I see is that the really good policies in each of those trees are two levels down. Its hard to get to the good stuff if you blow too many policy picks on the surface.

Also Jatta, is this why you haven't posted about your new game yet? Because you're embarrassed about winning? Jatta, I think I speak for all of us when I say that even if you mess up and win occasionally, we still love you.

:) Yes, this is why I haven't posted about my new game yet. I still have a long way to go so there is hope for me to screw up yet.
 
honor for culture farm relies on you having large, unclaimed lands around you for barbarian camps. If you suddenly find yourself without barbarians, you're out of luck.
 
I've taken the Honor opener in about half my games simply because the barbarians are everywhere (the culture can be quite helpful as well). However, the deeper tiers of liberty and tradition are far better than the opener. Going for all three openers before going deeper isn't very helpful.

I'm pretty sure it's been mathematically proven that opening with tradition if trying to go for collective rule takes longer than going straight for it.

I think you're right, however, the math was done with the old social policy costs. I think it's less pronounced than before and you do get an additional social policy out of it.
 
mrwho: If your purpose is to 'just' open Collective Rule, then yes, opening Tradition first is slower.

However, if you intend to ever take the Tradition opener (either because you want to complete the Tradition tree or just want the expanded border generation), then Tradition -> Liberty is often the better decision.

Also, has anyone modeled popping a Culture Hut? Is there a turn point where, if you get a Culture Hut by said turn, taking Tradition before Liberty makes it more useful? (This is mainly a question for the Shoshone, who can 'make it so'.)
 
Each policy you choose increases the cost of your next policy pretty substantially. I can see a case being made for tradition + honor or tradition + liberty if flexibility is very important, although this will still slow overall policy progression. The biggest problem I see is that the really good policies in each of those trees are two levels down. Its hard to get to the good stuff if you blow too many policy picks on the surface.

I'm arguing for ignoring the two levels down "good stuff" in all trees at the beginning and focusing on opening all of the other trees as they become available. By Industrial, it should be clearer if any policy is worth closing out or if you should just start taking Ideologies.
 
I feel like this strategy has potential. The best policies in each trees are generally the openers and closers of the policies (although not always), and this will also give you a wider range of wonders you can create. I'd probably avoid Piety and Aesthetics, but otherwise, the first policy trees are usually pretty good. The lack of useless policies from this strategy may outweigh the lack of amazing late tree policies.
 
honor for culture farm relies on you having large, unclaimed lands around you for barbarian camps. If you suddenly find yourself without barbarians, you're out of luck.

If you find yourself without large, unclaimed lands and barbarians then you are surrounded by enemy civs (or on an island). I'd argue that you need Honor even more in that situation (if not on an island).

I agree that Collective Rule is important, but what is the benefit of rushing right to it? The more cities you drop, the higher the culture cost of future policies. I think it's better to open up the policies first, then expand your territory.

If you ignore Piety, you are essentially giving up one of the biggest benefits of closing a tree - buying Great People. If you open everything up, grab Collective Rule, you should then be close to having the medieval policies available.
 
:) Yes, this is why I haven't posted about my new game yet. I still have a long way to go so there is hope for me to screw up yet.

You're a talented writer, friend; you don't need to live your life trying to recreate past glories. Indonesia has a different story to tell because NO SANE PERSON HAS EVER LIKED THEM. If you can just describe an experience where Indonesia sounds remotely fun to play, and where their arguably useless abilities somehow feel useful, why, that would be a story greater than all the failures in all the world!
 
I kind of liked Indonesia when I played them. I mean, ok, their uu is kind of annoying and their ub is too situational (doesn't make going for a religion worth doing), but it was nice getting a few cities on other continents when I normally wouldn't do that. One of my island cities became one of the biggest cities in my empire, and I saved an allied city state by stationing bombers in it, when the city state would have otherwise been too far away and gotten conquered.

Still not my favorite civ by any means though.
 
Lately, I've been hitting all of the openers to unlock access to untaken wonders. The openers are generally strong policies anyway, and I don't feel guilty since the game has removed the "complete X trees" mechanic for cultural victories.
 
Well, I just unified my starting island with a mass storm of Kris Swordsmen, which with a couple of good promotions on them made short work of the Roman Legion (and uh, Rome) and now I'm sending them off to brave new lands to find a decent place for my nutmeg. >_> I like playing Indonesia. While Kris Swordsmen are random, I like that; it actually made me alter my strategies for how I maneuvered a lot of my guys. For instance, my Evil Spirits Swordsman, I directed to keep attacking Antium until it died so I could make a new one that didn't suck. (Okay, bad example.) Ambition gives you a unit that effectively fights at 21 strength on the attack, so I sent the two guys who had that promotion around hunting the Legion; normally, that 17 strength would make a huge dent in attacking, but no longer! Also Recruitment is basically a Jannissary Swordsman, once they were low on health I just kicked an Archers ass to bring me back to full health. It involves a bit of micromanagement, but not laboriously so. I've been having trouble enjoying the early game lately, but this was a very interesting and fun way to play. I'm now in a very good position for the midgame once I set up my colonies. Or maybe just aggressive expansion; I know Egypt is nearby, time to raid some tombs
 
I feel like this strategy has potential... The lack of useless policies from this strategy may outweigh the lack of amazing late tree policies.

:goodjob:

I admit, I get pretty tired of taking the same first 6 policies, in order, every game, then having to decide which tree to open next. This way, all the trees would already be open and I just have to pick the policy that I want more right at that time. It's brilliant!
 
Oh my, I was not expecting this massive outpouring of support for Indonesia. Given the circumstances, I have no choice but to humbly admit that I was wrong and apologize.

In unrelated news, I would like to announce my new book: "Mighty Indonesia: Civilization 5's Most Wonderful Civilization," which will be available for $19.99 just as soon as I begin writing it.
 
I agree that Collective Rule is important, but what is the benefit of rushing right to it? The more cities you drop, the higher the culture cost of future policies. I think it's better to open up the policies first, then expand your territory.

As I understand it, this won't let you get more policies. Culture earlier doesn't give you more policies, it's the total culture by the end of the game that matters. It'll maybe let you open up a couple policies a little faster, but once you have built all your cities, the culture required for opening up the n:th policy will be the same. Getting policies faster can seem like a good idea, but really, getting your infrastructure up quicker and your cities growing earlier and in better locations.. That by FAR outweighs the gain.

In my games (standard/small map, emperor/immortal, standard settings), I often don't see much benefit to picking Honor. AI is pretty terrible at war anyway, so I tend to get very bored when trying to go for Domination victory and just go start a new game when it's too easy and taking too long :( So, as I mostly focus on peaceful games, is just the opener worth picking up? I don't think so, the honor you gain is negligible by the end game. I might take it if I randomly roll Songhai, as I'll be building more units and hunting more barbs just for early money. If I'm not actively hunting them, I usually get away with just building an archer or two to help out my free warrior/spearman and scout/rune-upgraded archer.

In general: what you're proposing doesn't sound like a good strategy to me if you're hell bent on just beating the game. If you want to play reactionary (as you explained), and don't really mind if you win by turn 250 or 350, then it sounds like a recipe for fun :) I might give it a try later on. May even find out some surprising synergies I never knew about..
 
Oh my, I was not expecting this massive outpouring of support for Indonesia. Given the circumstances, I have no choice but to humbly admit that I was wrong and apologize.

In unrelated news, I would like to announce my new book: "Mighty Indonesia: Civilization 5's Most Wonderful Civilization," which will be available for $19.99 just as soon as I begin writing it.

All right... Indonesia is probably my least favorite of the BNW civs, but I would chose them over quite a few base game and G+K civs. They aren't great, but they have some decent benefits.
 
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