The Papal State - Semi-'One City' Exploration Age Civ Concept

[evonannoredars]

People have floated the idea of Venice returning in Civ VII as an exploration-age one-city civ, but I think there's another Italian exploration civ possibly even more suited to a single-city-adjacent mechanic: The Papal State.
Rather than focusing on training settlers to expand your territory, missionaries become the focus. With more founder beliefs and a unique missionary to make conversion less of a hassle, the ideal way to play the Papal State is to have a capital/holy city (the Vatican City) that focuses on pumping out missionaries to get yields through conversion - the Forum Sancti Petri exists so you don't need to worry so much about replacing buildings in your capital by effectively making them all ageless, allowing you to prioritise churning out Papal Legates and Popes.
You could go for expanionist gameplay, but religion becomes the glue for your empire - a settlement that is converted to another religion for too long may rebel and flip. Since only your capital can create missionaries, the further away a settlement is, the harder it might become to keep it. Fortunately, the ability that gives you copies of treasure fleets means you don't need to have cities in distant lands, and the military ability allows you to make progress by waging crusades, even if you later lose the settlement.

This isn't an entirely fleshed-out concept, I'll maybe return to it to fill out the civic tree, but for now this works as an overview:

---

Unique Ability
Patrimonium Sancti Petri: Immediately found Catholicism with an extra founder belief. Settlements may rebel if converted to another religion. Missionaries may only be trained in the capital.

Attributes
• Cultural
• Diplomatic

Civic Trees
Descriptive list of a few things that might be in the tree, as abilities:
• Conquering another holy city in any continent grants 1 permanent military victory point.
• Foreign settlements following your religion generate a copy treasure fleet for you.
• Levying units from city-states converted to your religion is significantly cheaper.
• Founder beliefs also apply to your settlements.
And as traditions:
• Effects of founder beliefs are doubled.
• Buildings with great work slots recieve +1 slot.
• Additional production towards culture buildings.
• Recieve gold per settlements connected to your holy city.

Unique Infrastructure
Pyramis Beati Petri: Unique Building. May only be built in the capital. Influence adjacency for adjacent districts and wonders.
Porticus Beati Petri: Unique Building. May only be built in the capital. Culture adjacency for adjacent districts and wonders.
Forum Sancti Petri: Unique Quarter. Obsolete buildings in this city restore and do not lose their adjacency bonuses.
Pyramis Beati Betri is the name of the obelisk. Had to come up with a name for the colonnades because I couldn't find what they actually call them in Latin.

Unique Civilian Units
Papal Legate: Unique Missionary. Converts rural and urban populations simultaneously.

Pope: Unique Great Person Unit. Can only be built in a city belonging to your religion, and the specific Pope received is random. Each Pope can only be received once. Cost increases per Pope built.

Possible Pope Units:
• Stephen II: Activated on the Palace to recieve an additional founder belief.
• St Leo III: Activated on a foreign Palace to recieve 3 additional war support when joining a war as an ally of this civ.
• Innocent III: Activated on a commander. Commander recieves additional xp fighting in territory belonging to another religion.
• Martin V: Activated on a foreign settlement. Settlement will auto-convert back to own religion after a few turns if converted to another religion.
• Leo X: Activated on a wonder to add production. Recieve gold per remaining production required, multiplied by number of other civs working on the wonder.
• Julius II: Activated on a settlement with the player's religion to grant military units.
• Sixtus IV: Activated on a settlement. Settlement gains 10% production towards building wonders.
Etc, to give a flavour of what Popes would do.

Associated Wonder
Basilica Sancti Petri: Specialists and relics in this city provide additional culture. Has 4 relic slots. Must be placed adjacent to a district.
Wonder quote: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church and give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." - Text from the interior of the dome.
Helps with completing the scientific legacy path! Visually connects to the Forum Sancti Petri if placed north-east of it.

 

[Ryansinbela]

People have floated the idea of Venice returning in Civ VII as an exploration-age one-city civ, but I think there's another Italian exploration civ possibly even more suited to a single-city-adjacent mechanic: The Papal State.
Rather than focusing on training settlers to expand your territory, missionaries become the focus. With more founder beliefs and a unique missionary to make conversion less of a hassle, the ideal way to play the Papal State is to have a capital/holy city (the Vatican City) that focuses on pumping out missionaries to get yields through conversion - the Forum Sancti Petri exists so you don't need to worry so much about replacing buildings in your capital by effectively making them all ageless, allowing you to prioritise churning out Papal Legates and Popes.
You could go for expanionist gameplay, but religion becomes the glue for your empire - a settlement that is converted to another religion for too long may rebel and flip. Since only your capital can create missionaries, the further away a settlement is, the harder it might become to keep it. Fortunately, the ability that gives you copies of treasure fleets means you don't need to have cities in distant lands, and the military ability allows you to make progress by waging crusades, even if you later lose the settlement.

This isn't an entirely fleshed-out concept, I'll maybe return to it to fill out the civic tree, but for now this works as an overview:

---

View attachment 724961
Unique Ability
Patrimonium Sancti Petri: Immediately found Catholicism with an extra founder belief. Settlements may rebel if converted to another religion. Missionaries may only be trained in the capital.

Attributes
• Cultural
• Diplomatic

Civic Trees
Descriptive list of a few things that might be in the tree, as abilities:
• Conquering another holy city in any continent grants 1 permanent military legacy point.
• Foreign settlements following your religion generate a copy treasure fleet for you.
• Levying units from city-states converted to your religion is significantly cheaper.
• Founder beliefs also apply to your settlements.
And as traditions:
• Effects of founder beliefs are doubled.
• Buildings with great work slots recieve +1 slot.
• Additional production towards culture buildings.
• Recieve gold per settlements connected to your holy city.

Unique Infrastructure
Pyramis Beati Petri: Unique Building. May only be built in the capital. Influence adjacency for adjacent districts and wonders.
Porticus Beati Petri: Unique Building. May only be built in the capital. Culture adjacency for adjacent districts and wonders.
Forum Sancti Petri: Unique Quarter. Obsolete buildings in this city restore and do not lose their adjacency bonuses.
Pyramis Beati Betri is the name of the obelisk. Had to come up with a name for the colonnades because I couldn't find what they actually call them in Latin.

Unique Civilian Units
Papal Legate: Unique Missionary. Converts rural and urban populations simultaneously.

Pope: Unique Great Person Unit. Can only be built in a city belonging to your religion, and the specific Pope received is random. Each Pope can only be received once. Cost increases per Pope built.

Possible Pope Units:
• Stephen II: Activated on the Palace to recieve an additional founder belief.
• St Leo III: Activated on a foreign Palace to recieve 3 additional war support when joining a war as an ally of this civ.
• Innocent III: Activated on a commander. Commander recieves additional xp fighting in territory belonging to another religion.
• Martin V: Activated on a foreign settlement. Settlement will auto-convert back to own religion after a few turns if converted to another religion.
• Leo X: Activated on a wonder to add production. Recieve gold per remaining production required, multiplied by number of other civs working on the wonder.
• Julius II: Activated on a settlement with the player's religion to grant military units.
• Sixtus IV: Activated on a settlement. Settlement gains 10% production towards building wonders.
Etc, to give a flavour of what Popes would do.

Associated Wonder
Basilica Sancti Petri: Specialists and relics in this city provide additional culture. Has 4 relic slots. Must be placed adjacent to a district.
Wonder quote: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church and give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." - Text from the interior of the dome.
Helps with completing the scientific legacy path! Visually connects to the Forum Sancti Petri if placed north-east of it.

I think the unique ability should just be to found any religion instantly, not just Catholicism, interesting concept

 

[evonannoredars]

I think the unique ability should just be to found any religion instantly, not just Catholicism, interesting concept

Aye just put Catholicism there because if they made this irl, I imagine there'd be controversy if the Vatican City was able to found any other religion

 

[Ryansinbela]

Can’t you convert Vatican City though (as a city-state)

 

[Krikkit1]

One possibility for semi one city is no settlers... you should have some from Antiquity and can get some through conquest (In which case I would have 3 points for conquering (AND converting) another Holy City)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

No Swiss Guard? I mean unique missionaries also make sense, but I like civs better when they have one military and one civilian.

 

[evonannoredars]

No Swiss Guard? I mean unique missionaries also make sense, but I like civs better when they have one military and one civilian.

Yeah I considered a unique military unit, but decided in the end to just reflect the Swiss Guard/Corsican Guard/Papal Zouaves/etc through the bonus towards levying units instead.

 

[nickelion]

This is extremely interesting. What's a "permanent military legacy point"? Aren't they permanent anyway?

I love the idea, btw. I really hope someone makes this possible

 

[Krikkit1]

This is extremely interesting. What's a "permanent military legacy point"? Aren't they permanent anyway?

I love the idea, btw. I really hope someone makes this possible

I think they mean if it gets Taken back.

 

[evonannoredars]

This is extremely interesting. What's a "permanent military legacy point"? Aren't they permanent anyway?

I love the idea, btw. I really hope someone makes this possible

Thanks! Ah oops did I mix up terminology? I meant the victory points towards the legacy path progress milestones, not the attribute points

 

[RedCourtJester]

Eh, I think Vatican City makes much more sense alongside Britain, Netherlands, and Russia in the modern era than it does in exploration era like Spain and Bulgaria. It may have had a lot of influence over renaissance Europe, but even that pales in comparison to its wealth and influence now as a kind of stochastic land-grabby megacorp theocratic monarchy.

And even then, I think Italy and/or Switzerland in modern era, and Venice in exploration era, each make much more sense respectively than the Papal States. I would enjoy an exploration era Vatican City that is just slut-shaming neighbors much less than modern era Vatican City outright buying people's settlements.

 

[evonannoredars]

Eh, I think Vatican City makes much more sense alongside Britain, Netherlands, and Russia in the modern era than it does in exploration era like Spain and Bulgaria. It may have had a lot of influence over renaissance Europe, but even that pales in comparison to its wealth and influence now as a kind of stochastic land-grabby megacorp theocratic monarchy.

And even then, I think Italy and/or Switzerland in modern era, and Venice in exploration era, each make much more sense respectively than the Papal States. I would enjoy an exploration era Vatican City that is just slut-shaming neighbors much less than modern era Vatican City outright buying people's settlements.

A modern Vatican City could work, although thematically I think it fits in much better in the era that has religion as a gameplay mechanic. The large territory and active involvements in wars of the Papal States are also more known about than the scattering of properties the modern Holy See has.

 

[nickelion]

land-grabby megacorp theocratic monarchy.

I accept the rest, but "land-grabby"

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Eh, I think Vatican City makes much more sense alongside Britain, Netherlands, and Russia in the modern era than it does in exploration era like Spain and Bulgaria. It may have had a lot of influence over renaissance Europe, but even that pales in comparison to its wealth and influence now as a kind of stochastic land-grabby megacorp theocratic monarchy.

And even then, I think Italy and/or Switzerland in modern era, and Venice in exploration era, each make much more sense respectively than the Papal States. I would enjoy an exploration era Vatican City that is just slut-shaming neighbors much less than modern era Vatican City outright buying people's settlements.

You would put the Vatican City/Papal States, home to one of the major religions of the world, in an age that doesn't revolve around religion?

 

[RogueAustralian]

I really like a lot of the ideas you’re working with. There’s quite a bit of overlap with a Vatican mod I’m actually working on to go alongside my modded Venice - so that is validating for me!

I do agree that this is better flavorfully and mechanically in the exploration age for sure.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Papal States fits Exploration in my opinion

 

[evonannoredars]

I really like a lot of the ideas you’re working with. There’s quite a bit of overlap with a Vatican mod I’m actually working on to go alongside my modded Venice - so that is validating for me!

Thanks! Let me know when you release your Vatican mod, I'm curious how our ideas compare

 

[RedCourtJester]

You would put the Vatican City/Papal States, home to one of the major religions of the world, in an age that doesn't revolve around religion?

Yes, I would consider it. It obviously is a religious institution, but it's become so much more than that since the exploration era, and really functions more like a megacorp ala Microsoft, Apple, or Tesla. I think reducing it to a religious civ really undermines/erases a lot of facets of what Vatican City is (and generally always was). I also think that, just like how Bulgaria and Mongolia can switch up exploration era victories, if any modern civ would deserve to put a "religious gameplay" spin on modern economics and culture, it would be Vatican City, hands down.

Again, it's a matter of looking at when a civ was considered most "dominant" and had its "golden age." I would absolutely argue that Vatican City's real golden age was post-colonialist. Before Spain and Portugal exploration, it was only a major player in western Europe (which is comparatively less influence than exploration Spain and exploration Normans, and about on par with Bulgaria and Venice). After Spain, it became and continues to be a major player globally, and that influence persisted long after the Spanish and Portuguese empires fell apart. There is an argument that it makes sense as a successor to Spain and Portugal.

All of this is fairly hypothetical though, however. Although I think mechanically it works most cleanly as Carthage -> Venice -> Vatican City, I think Venice and Italy are just better choices for those eras, and furthermore that Vatican/Papal States won't be very satisfying representation in either exploration or modern era. I think it makes much more sense as an independent power and hope they don't make it a civ. If, on the off chance that it is included as an exploration era civ, I would demand that it get some very strong persisting traditions/buildings/units so that it would still retain a lot of its manipulative gameplay in the modern era. While I can accept that many exploration civs are "abandoned" after their empires disappeared despite still existing as countries/peoples (Spain, Mongolia, Shawnee, Bulgaria, etc. etc.), I draw the line at the Vatican. It remains a huge global power, magnitudes bigger than in the exploration era, and only continues to snowball wealth and influence, and to gloss over that reality I think would be very disingenuous of Firaxis.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I accept the rest, but "land-grabby"

The Catholic Church, like the Mormons, like the Scientologists, like McDonalds, is just as much a real estate empire as it is other things. It owns 277,000 square miles of land. And given that it remains impressively politically sovereign despite the Vatican being the smallest country in the world, as well has inarguably placed that land quite strategically across most of the developed world, it is magnitudes a better representation of 270,000 square miles of modern politics than everyone clamoring for a modern "Texas," which is, in fact, (barely) smaller.

This is what I mean by the fact that the Vatican needs modern representation, somehow, or shouldn't be a civ at all. It is ulteriorly massive and yet most people are totally unaware not only of its influence, but also that it is structured as a monarchical state , as well as a corporation, in a way no other old world religion really is.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

All of this is fairly hypothetical though, however. Although I think mechanically it works most cleanly as Carthage -> Venice -> Vatican City, I think Venice and Italy are just better choices for those eras, and furthermore that Vatican/Papal States won't be very satisfying representation in either exploration or modern era.

Oh, I don't disagree that Venice and Italy are more likely, and in my opinion more preferable. But unless religion plays a more prominent role in Modern, I think it would be weird if it was extracting artifacts instead of acquiring relics.

It owns 277,000 square miles of land. And given that it remains impressively politically sovereign despite the Vatican being the smallest country in the world, as well has inarguably placed that land quite strategically across most of the developed world, it is magnitudes a better representation of 270,000 square miles of modern politics than everyone clamoring for a modern "Texas," which is, in fact, (barely) smaller.

Why be mean to Texas?