The Polish Civilization and it's historical goals.

[merijn_v1]

This is my very first post here It ended up being horribly long, but I hope someone bothers to read through it, even though this thread has not been discussed for some time

Another Norwegian (?) commenting on Poland and its history :

First of all: this mod has a lot of potential, and the gameplay is allready great with a few other civs I tried (French, Norse etc). Keep up the good work!

But considering the Polish historical goals, I honestly didn't like any of them very much, because of the following reasons :

Goal 1: largest population - very general goal, that I didn't find very interesting to persue.

Goal 2: not lose city - same as the first one.

Goal 3: highest amount of "religios points" - this is actually quite unique, and quite interesting to persue, so maybe another civilization can have this goal, but the way I allways interpreted Polish history, it should not be a goal of Poland. The "Golden liberty" as a unique power, could almost, in my opinion, be included as "start with free religion", as there was much more tolerance for religion in Poland than in most other European countries at this time during the Golden Age of Poland. During this period, Poland expanded into the areas formerly controlled by the Kievan Rus, and Orthodox christians were mostly not being prosecuted. Also Poland had the largest Jewish population of any country in Europe, from some time after the Black Death. This goal, on the other hand, would usually be fulfilled through numerous inquisitions

I liked a lot of the suggestions for new goals, but anyway I decided to make my own list, of those that I think are my personal favorites at the moment :

Goal 1: Control Wilno, Königsberg (maybe not entirely correct, but would symbolize Poland having mostly control of the area after the major defeat of the Prussians/Teutonic Order at the battle of Grünwald.) and Lwow (maybe someone has a better suggestion?) in 1410. These cities would then need to be included as independants. This would hopefully help the AI a bit as well, which in my experience allways seems to play horribly as Poland. This goal would be very much connected to the third one.

Goal 2: Build Copernicus Observatory before 1543. I have no idea if this is a good year considering gameplay (probably the year is not even in the game), but it is the year Copernicus died, and his writing were published right before his death. If this is the entire goal, 8 universities should be required to build it. Another possibility, as suggested before, is to include building the royal castle of Wawel in this goal (maybe both should be built in Krakow? Could give a monarchy-related bonus and/or a bonus to cavalry, making players emphasize this part of military when expanding), and another Polish wonder or wonder of your choice. The unique power as it is, would make sence if Poland has such a goal.

Goal 3: Have at least one city at both the baltic and the black sea in 1630, and culture all the way between them. I liked this goal from when I first saw it suggested, even though it was something it seems Poland only achieved for a very limited amount of time. The year can be discussed a lot. In real history it seems that it was only achieved for a short time after Poland and Lithuania was united (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IRP_1466.PNG), and later the Ottomans and their Crimean vassal controlled the area most of the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_1635.png). I think it is best included as a "what if" goal. "What if Poland had gained proper control between the seas during the heigh of its power?" Therefore I would prefer to have it as a goal to be fullfilled right before Poland started to lose it position as a regional power (Khmelnytsky Uprising, Potop Szwedzki etc). Again, I haven't tried this, so I have no idea if it is too easy or too hard with such a year. A remade unique power, focusing on the relative religious tolerance of the Rzeczpospolita, would make such a goal easier, as you would usually need to expand into orthodox lands.

And to make a suggestion of my own :
Goal 1/2/3 (another way to emphasize the culture and religious tolerance of Poland): Build one catholic cathedral, one orthodox cathedral and one Jewish "money making building" before ???? This would require Poland to be played in a very versatile way, as you would need to keep focus on three main aspects: expansion, science and religion.

Another thing (maybe I should make a post somewhere else): As I have understood it, protestantism is founded in a random catholic city (?). During my game, protestantism was founded in Rome, which I found funny but strange. Should/Could this be made an exception?

In the end I guess I should write that I am sorry for my bad english, as it seems to be required to do that if one doesn't write 100% perfect.

Welcome to RFCEurope. We agreed that the Polish UHVs are not very good. We discussed that a few days ago. (You were a little bit too late to get involved with that) We are going to change them in the next version. Look around in some threads too see what we will change.

We also swapped the UP of Hungary and Poland. That represents (as you said yourself) that Poland was very tolerant to religion.

You joined us just a few days too late. Otherwise you knew that we will change Poland.

 

[haakonsfls]

Ah, great. I'm very happy about your answer. Found (at least part of) the discussion in another thread, and now I'm really looking forward for a new version with updated UP and UHV for Poland

 

[Thorik1492]

Unique Building of Cordobans gives +3 hammers, which is equal to green hills with mines.
Folwark gives only +1 food - maybe let's change it to +2, number which is equal to unimproved grassland? Because now Folwark seems pretty weak...

Also, I don't know if Folwark is the best choice... In mod Polish Empire unique building for our nation is Sejmik - a place where szlachta [nobles] gathered and choosed their representatives on Sejm.
This building can look like this:
Sejmik [replaces: Courthouse]
Unique benefit: Light/heavy cavalry units start with +3 exp point [to show Polish focus on cavalry, also - Szlachta gathered on war as "Pospolite ruszenie"]
Or, if specialists proposed in another thread on this forum will be implemented, it can be: +1 free Aristocrat [to show that noble state in Poland was the biggest in whole Europe], either for Sejmik or Folwark.

 

[merijn_v1]

Unique Building of Cordobans gives +3 hammers, which is equal to green hills with mines.
Folwark gives only +1 food - maybe let's change it to +2, number which is equal to unimproved grassland? Because now Folwark seems pretty weak...

Also, I don't know if Folwark is the best choice... In mod Polish Empire unique building for our nation is Sejmik - a place where szlachta [nobles] gathered and choosed their representatives on Sejm.
This building can look like this:
Sejmik [replaces: Courthouse]
Unique benefit: Light/heavy cavalry units start with +3 exp point [to show Polish focus on cavalry, also - Szlachta gathered on war as "Pospolite ruszenie"]
Or, if specialists proposed in another thread on this forum will be implemented, it can be: +1 free Aristocrat [to show that noble state in Poland was the biggest in whole Europe], either for Sejmik or Folwark.

The Folwark will be improved in the next version. (They now store more food (15%) after growth.) But I agree they still can be improved a little.

 

[Thorik1492]

Hmm, it's good that they will be improved, but I don't know if this route is historically accurate... Poland hadn't large population in comparison to the rest of Europe and its eastern territories had very small density. Some bonus connnected with noble democracy/cavalry would be better in my oppinion.

 

[fdgsgds]

Welcome to RFCEurope. We agreed that the Polish UHVs are not very good. We discussed that a few days ago. (You were a little bit too late to get involved with that) We are going to change them in the next version. Look around in some threads too see what we will change.

We also swapped the UP of Hungary and Poland. That represents (as you said yourself) that Poland was very tolerant to religion.

You joined us just a few days too late. Otherwise you knew that we will change Poland.

Won't taking away Hungary's UP and giving it to Poland make for an even more unstable Hungary? I mean, they are unstable enough as it is, and taking away the no stability penalty from religions is harsh. They are right in between Catholic and Orthodox nations, and Islam also spreads into a city or two.

Edit: Have more to post, don't want to double post.

I am playing a game as Poland, but is the name in the beginning supposed to be Polans Peoples? It's before you settle a city, so it's no big deal, but I want to see if it's correct.

 

[merijn_v1]

Won't taking away Hungary's UP and giving it to Poland make for an even more unstable Hungary? I mean, they are unstable enough as it is, and taking away the no stability penalty from religions is harsh. They are right in between Catholic and Orthodox nations, and Islam also spreads into a city or two.

I didn't say they MUST be swapped. I just said it happened, not if I liked it. (accually, I don't care much, the only I thing I want is that the game is Historical and it has a good gameplay)

 

[wolfigor]

Another Norwegian (?) commenting on Poland and its history :

And another one to add to the list

Goal 1: largest population - very general goal, that I didn't find very interesting to persue.

From the gameplay point of view it's not the most interesting goal ever, even if it poses some (small) challenges and force the player to maximise food production at the expenses of other improvements.

Most important is that the goal is far from historically accurate.
Population in Poland during middle age was never that large compared with the rest of other European countries (see http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.html ).

Prussia could be called the Teutonic order in the early stages and then change name later on to Prussia when they occupy cities like Munich or Berlin. If this isn't possible then independent cities at the location of Gdansk, Riga and somewhere around Tallin would make up for that. A strong independent nation that would represent the Teutonic order which historically merged with another order residing order at todays location of the baltic states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Teutonic_state_1455.png.

You don't need a new civ to "simulate" the Teutonic order.
On the map there are a few independent towns on the Baltic that belonged to the state of the Teutonic Order.
We could have a script that if no Civ creates the Teutonic Order before 1237AD, the order will be automatically founded (like Christianity in the original RFC).
The date of 1237 is not the founding date for the Teutonic Order but the date of founding the state of the Teutonic Order.