The Portugal Thread

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To help organize and manage the torrent of input Leoreth has been and will continue to receive during this exciting but painful phase in the game's development, I thought it would be better to create new threads as needed. As the forum's self-designated "Portugal Guy", I could think of no more appropriate contribution for me to make. Fellow players are urged to limit any Portuguese-related input (aside from Bug Reports) to this thread and are encouraged to start threads of their own not only for particular civs but any *distinct* aspect of the game that can be easily categorized.

This remainder of this post will be used to summarize all the input below and will be updated as the discussion progresses:

UU: Rename Carrack to Carraca. At least one request for buffs.
UP: Under discussion; pending further experience. Impact appears doubtful so far. Somebody seconded my idea to effectively give settlers Renaissance-status earlier.
UHV #1: Requests for editions to Indian Trade Route tiles, mainly rearranging to eliminate some areas (e.g. St Helena) and expanding eastward to Malacca.
UHV #2: Total Resources Required not yet increased for new map
UHV #3: Most vocal participants want it super dead hehehe #CloseTheOceans King Sebastian's revenge perhaps?
TC TARGETS: Consensus gathering around synergy with UHVs either via changing targets or UHV areas.
MISC:
 
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Collecting previous ideas from myself and others in this post.

@AOS9001 I hope you dont mind that I pasted your input here:
Some Portugal specific thoughts:
I'm a bit disappointed to see the Portuguese open borders goal from base RFC survived. Making nice with everyone is not at all fitting for a crusader kingdom that took the Reconquista to the other side of the world. I have three ideas for a replacement UHV.
First idea, Afonso de Albuquerque's strategy for closing the Indian ocean:
-Control the Bab al-Mandab (Aden), the straits of Hormuz, the Mozambique channel, and the straits of Malacca by X date (1600 would be appropriate, I think)
Second idea, a reflection of the Portuguese piracy and mayhem in the Indian ocean:
-Plunder X gold from blockades, pillaging, and city conquests in the Indian Ocean region (Vasco da Gama cheering from his grave, dude was a savage)
Third idea, the activity of the Jesuits in the Indo-Pacific:
-Spread Catholicism to X number of cities or X percentage of [India, China, and Japan] (in my opinion this is a more interesting way of doing the open borders challenge, and has some nice meta poetry with Spain's Catholicism UHV)

Easy to implement and shouldn't be controversial by: It's time to relabel The Portuguese UU to either to Carraca or Não.

From Civilisation Attributes open discussion:
PORTUGAL - FROL DA MAR

Quick intro if I may: The lil “kingdom that could” has always been my top pick in any game it features in but with DoC she’s been a veritable obsession. I can’t identify the reasons and they’re not material to our discussion here (hehe I’m not a sliver Lusitanian myself). Essentially I’m just building a case to argue from authority, or experience at least; I’ve easily logged Portugal runs in the hundreds. Pompous rant over.

*Generally* the Civ is in a good place both for historicity and gameplay. The UP truly captures the spirit of sailing off to grab a little piece of *every* part of world and fulfills the aspirational quality that makes any feature of a civ strong.

UUs - SOLID

The Carrack is almost perfect and therefore no surprise it is and always will be Portugals UU in a Civ game. I’d make a case for adding city bombard ability to satisfy an historical itch but wouldnt push it
At the cost of balance. She could also maybe do with a rename since carrack refers to a very general class of ship. I’d like to do better than Náo but can’t quite justify something like the Civ6 Dutch naming a unit class after a single flagship, as sexy as Frol da Mar might sound. Náo works; I mean, at least it’s Portuguese.

Bandeirente was a brilliant addition that shored up civ shortcomings while keeping perfectly in step with the historical spirit. It’s also kinda necessary to a successful strategy in which the player has to fun decades-long deficits and jump-start settlements globewide. I hesitate to suggestion that it *might* be a teaspoon too strong because it’s been such a boon to my games. No change would be fine.

UHV 1 - “OPEN” BORDERS (with cannon fire)

Leoreth wouldn’t possible deserve any guff for keeping this one around from Rhye since it’s essentially worked and seems to fit the whole Trade Empire. I’m sure that without any objections being raised it was left untouched as our best guy turned attention to the other 5,550,000 items on the list.

Im gonna declare that it’s time ditch this old dinosaur because it’s not
only anathema to historical Portuguese conduct but plain uninteresting and not fun. In the past, it was only possible to fail due to the unstable state of the game. That’s since been remedied by Leoreth. I’d estimate in that last 75 games I’ve checked this box by 1450 at the latest.

Its also kinda laughably at odds with practice. “Open borders” has one imagining the free movement of goods overseen by intelligent businessmen and civil servants to the benefit of a merchant middle class - an centuries-early single market! We know it was the opposite: seaborne Crusaders with shiny new guns blasted their way from one end of the Indian Ocean to the other, occupied and rebuilt the ruins, and funneled the wealth of the eastern trade directly to the Crown. Among the Red Sea, Persian Gulf, and Straights of Malacca, borders were being closed.

The Problem: I can’t think of a suitable replacement. Conquest goals aren’t interesting either and would Likely take away the fun derived from the civs flexibility when it comes to settlement and
Flexibility. England already has to sink ships. Kongo trades slaves. The Moors pirate. Another Rhye legacy involving Map knowledge is also a snoozer. Too many appropriate “firsts” seem trivial to accomplish.

The closet thing I have to idea is borrowing one of Genoa’s goals from RFC Europe which is something like having the highest volume of Imports/Exports (trade volume) by XX. But, I also have no idea where the average game lands a player on this metric; for all I know it’s a necessary outcome of fulfilling UHV 2 and 3. Bring on them ideas please!

UHV 2 - CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION

Hehe fine, let the Dutch have their spices only. This one does the job. The quantity requirements just haven’t kept up with the addition of map resources over the years and versions. 18 would be a safe place to start but I’d push for 20. This might also be rendered moot by new map.

UHV 3 - JUST LIKE, SETTLE DUDE

Until a more creative proposal comes along, and like #2, increase quantity required and either lengthen or
Shorten deadline. Perhaps change “by” to “in”. Right now it’s essentially “England Lite”.
 
Tag me all you like, I'm probably Portugal fan #2 after you. I'm having flashbacks to taking Portuguese as my second language class in college, and everyone talking about soccer/football, Rio, and music... while I'm thinking about the Reconquista and voyages of exploration. No disrespect to Brazil, it's a fascinating country for completely different reasons, but that's another thread.

Some more thoughts I've had since I made the post you quoted:

Unique Power (+1 trade route for overseas colonies until the industrial era)
It's alright, I guess. I'd like it a lot more if it wasn't essentially limited to essentially the Renaissance, but that is the time when Portugal was a relevant world power, so I see Leoreth's logic here. It does pair nicely with the Feitoria, but it's such an expensive building for such a bunch of awful little colonies (more on that below). The result is the synergy doesn't last all that long in the grand scheme of the game. I've never liked unique powers with expiration dates, it just feels like a kick in the shins when other civs get to keep theirs forever and yours goes away.

Cartaz UHV goal (control 35% of the Indian Trade Route by 1550)
This is absolutely a step in the right direction for this civ. I love the implicit nature of it - to control the route you need to settle or conquer a lot of colonies, but it's in a specific and historic area. That being said, I really wish the "Indian Trade Route" stretched all the way to Malacca or even the Spice Islands (they're called the East Indies after all). It also doesn't include the Red Sea or Persian Gulf, where the Portuguese were also active in this time. The fact that it stops at Ceylon is perplexing, see the trading companies bit below. If the trade route was to be extended, then the % controlled would probably need to be lowered to account for the increased tile count.

I have yet to achieve this goal, actually. 35% of those coast tiles is a good chunk of coast to control, and you only have a short window to do it. I've tried starting immediately in the middle ages, I've tried started as soon as I get carracks, and I've tried starting once I get to the Renaissance because of all the bonus buildings you get in new cities. The Renaissance strategy is the best for your economy, but I think the carrack strategy gives more wiggle room. Lisboa will basically just be a settler + Bandiero factory until 1550, I think. I might also try building an army to invade Kilwa with, but I'm not sure if there's enough time. I need to find a new Sofala on this map so I have a productive city besides Lisboa.

Awful little colonies
I noticed that Socotra, Cape Verde, and St. Helena's coastal tiles all count towards the goal. Eight tiles for your UHV, mostly uncontested (I hate you Mali stop spamming cities all over Guinea), sounds great. Finally, a reason to settle these useless islands! And a feitoria would be great on all of them (if you ever manage to build one, these islands have almost no production - maybe the right move is to settle slaves on them?), with all those water tiles around. But only Cape Verde has a resource, and it's a fish. It would be nice if we had a little more incentive to colonize these one tile wastelands. I guess the UHV is all the reason you should need, maybe I'm just griping.

Canon trading company locations?
In 1.17 the trading company for Portugal was a crapshoot. You might get some decent cities like Guangzhou, Colombo, or Malacca. Or you might get awful cities like Muscat or Quelimane. But in every Portugal game I've played in 1.18 (so like, 6), the trading company seems to target two specific cities: Malacca (good) and Colombo (good), usually with another Thailand city thrown in (unless it's been razed, then it switches to an east African city). I honestly prefer this because Malacca and Colombo were both very important to the Portuguese until they lost them to Dutch. However... their coast tiles don't count towards first UHV goal (except Colombo's southwestern ones). I find that strange. Maybe I'm just getting unlucky with RNGesus?

Azores no longer worth it?
The Azores are no longer a core tile for Portugal, which makes me sad. That whale is just not worth the maintenance costs now, which is something I found myself considering as I city spammed my way around Africa. Years ago I suggested sugar should spawn here too, as there were sugar plantations on it starting in the 15th century. They also had citrus industry by the middle of the 16th century. Either would make the island worth it, as they're trading company resources. Actually citrus is not a trading company resource, go figure. Leoreth, the sugar, please...

Your golden neighbor
Spain is so sad right now. Even when I give them helpful nudges they can't conquer more than the Aztecs before collapsing. It's disheartening to see and is actually making playing Portugal a little depressing for me.

Replacing the open borders UHV
I agree with your post that this wack goal isn't Leoreth's fault. Rhye might not have done an in-depth study of Portugal when he came up with their UHVs, and just knew the historic memes about Portugal being a country that explored and brought home exotic goods. I've done some more thinking on how to replace this goal, and I'm leaning towards the Jesuit angle as the best one. It would be an interesting way to both pay tribute to Rhye's original vision as well as be accurate to the Portuguese nation. This would hold especially true if Leoreth ever integrates Afonso de Albeqerque's closed sea strategy into the first goal.

Of course, any changes are up to Leoreth at the end of the day. All we can do is provide ideas and feedback.
 
Unique Power (+1 trade route for overseas colonies until the industrial era)
It's alright, I guess. I'd like it a lot more if it wasn't essentially limited to essentially the Renaissance, but that is the time when Portugal was a relevant world power, so I see Leoreth's logic here. It does pair nicely with the Feitoria, but it's such an expensive building for such a bunch of awful little colonies (more on that below). The result is the synergy doesn't last all that long in the grand scheme of the game. I've never liked unique powers with expiration dates, it just feels like a kick in the shins when other civs get to keep theirs forever and yours goes away.
It's hard for me to make an accurate evaluation until I run a game with and without it, but I suspect its usefulness is limited. Much of the commerce gets lost to maintenance. To me the best UPs are those that can be leveraged toward accomplishing UHVs and I think we can do much better. One idea the new UHV gave me is for Cartography to act like Renaissance Era on new cities founded (Pop and Buildings). Concerning Feitoria, have you not been running Reg Trade?

Cartaz UHV goal (control 35% of the Indian Trade Route by 1550)
This is absolutely a step in the right direction for this civ. I love the implicit nature of it - to control the route you need to settle or conquer a lot of colonies, but it's in a specific and historic area. That being said, I really wish the "Indian Trade Route" stretched all the way to Malacca or even the Spice Islands (they're called the East Indies after all). It also doesn't include the Red Sea or Persian Gulf, where the Portuguese were also active in this time. The fact that it stops at Ceylon is perplexing, see the trading companies bit below. If the trade route was to be extended, then the % controlled would probably need to be lowered to account for the increased tile count.
Agreed, especially extending to Malacca.

I have yet to achieve this goal, actually. 35% of those coast tiles is a good chunk of coast to control, and you only have a short window to do it. I've tried starting immediately in the middle ages, I've tried started as soon as I get carracks, and I've tried starting once I get to the Renaissance because of all the bonus buildings you get in new cities. The Renaissance strategy is the best for your economy, but I think the carrack strategy gives more wiggle room. Lisboa will basically just be a settler + Bandiero factory until 1550, I think. I might also try building an army to invade Kilwa with, but I'm not sure if there's enough time. I need to find a new Sofala on this map so I have a productive city besides Lisboa.
New World Conqueror armies are the key. I miss the old Sofala as well but I found a potential replacement in Kissonde (3S of Congo capital) especially if pumped up by slaves.

Replacing the open borders UHV
I agree with your post that this wack goal isn't Leoreth's fault. Rhye might not have done an in-depth study of Portugal when he came up with their UHVs, and just knew the historic memes about Portugal being a country that explored and brought home exotic goods. I've done some more thinking on how to replace this goal, and I'm leaning towards the Jesuit angle as the best one. It would be an interesting way to both pay tribute to Rhye's original vision as well as be accurate to the Portuguese nation. This would hold especially true if Leoreth ever integrates Afonso de Albeqerque's closed sea strategy into the first goal.
Not having to think about Brazil at all just feels kinda cursed, especially watching it get settled by the French and Dutch, both of whom have so far appeared much more inclined and able to do so. It think it would fit both historicity and gameplay to work it back in somehow.

Awful little colonies
I noticed that Socotra, Cape Verde, and St. Helena's coastal tiles all count towards the goal. Eight tiles for your UHV, mostly uncontested (I hate you Mali stop spamming cities all over Guinea), sounds great. Finally, a reason to settle these useless islands! And a feitoria would be great on all of them (if you ever manage to build one, these islands have almost no production - maybe the right move is to settle slaves on them?), with all those water tiles around. But only Cape Verde has a resource, and it's a fish. It would be nice if we had a little more incentive to colonize these one tile wastelands. I guess the UHV is all the reason you should need, maybe I'm just griping.
I feel your pain here as well but I suppose the this could be a valid part of the Challenge factor. Opportunities for slave capturing are far greater now and this should be leveraged. Perhaps a UP would make these island bases more potent?
Canon trading company locations?
In 1.17 the trading company for Portugal was a crapshoot. You might get some decent cities like Guangzhou, Colombo, or Malacca. Or you might get awful cities like Muscat or Quelimane. But in every Portugal game I've played in 1.18 (so like, 6), the trading company seems to target two specific cities: Malacca (good) and Colombo (good), usually with another Thailand city thrown in (unless it's been razed, then it switches to an east African city). I honestly prefer this because Malacca and Colombo were both very important to the Portuguese until they lost them to Dutch. However... their coast tiles don't count towards first UHV goal (except Colombo's southwestern ones). I find that strange. Maybe I'm just getting unlucky with RNGesus?
Agreed the current targets are *barely* relevant in current game state. The armies could be useful if transported elsewhere in time.
Your golden neighbor
Spain is so sad right now. Even when I give them helpful nudges they can't conquer more than the Aztecs before collapsing. It's disheartening to see and is actually making playing Portugal a little depressing for me.
Funny but you should be getting those free armies yourself!
 
How about Maracus? It's in Conquest area and Indian trade route. Trebs do 3% damage to castle, it will take quite long time to deal with city. But maybe it worth to do?
Good production, rich resourcers and way to Mali lands maybe?
 
New World Conqueror armies are the key. I miss the old Sofala as well but I found a potential replacement in Kissonde (3S of Congo capital) especially if pumped up by slaves.
I noticed that city was doing really well in the 1700 scenario, I'll try to snipe the spot from Kongo in my next run.
Not having to think about Brazil at all just feels kinda cursed, especially watching it get settled by the French and Dutch, both of whom have so far appeared much more inclined and able to do so. It think it would fit both historicity and gameplay to work it back in somehow.
Counting Madeira, there are 9 trading company resources in areas targeted by your UHV (and are historical) and trading company. More if you invade southern India. You only need to settle Sao Paulo to get the rest. Working Brazil more heavily into the UHV would nice, I think.
Funny but you should be getting those free armies yourself!
Yeah, the conquerors armies do help, but ever since they got that mercenary free promotion they're a huge tank on the economy. I also like seeing Spain get conquerors because it soothes my inner history nerd.

Re: awful colonies
I rushed cartography and sent a small army of bandieros into Congo and Nigeria in the 1300s, got a bunch of slaves. I settled them in those one tile islands and they actually made them... not good, but at least productive enough to build a feitoria in under 20 turns, instead of 100 or something (even while running regulated trade).

How about Maracus? It's in Conquest area and Indian trade route. Trebs do 3% damage to castle, it will take quite long time to deal with city. But maybe it worth to do?
Good production, rich resourcers and way to Mali lands maybe?
I don't know why that didn't occur to me. I'm going to try this out later today. Hopefully it goes better than King Sebastian's crusade!
 
(Un)luckily for me today is a sick day, so I'm playing Civ IV instead of working. I've made a few shots at taking Marrakesh, and it's tricky.
  • You need to take it before it has a castle, because by the time you have bombards it'll be too late to matter
  • Paradoxically this was easier when the Moors were strong and conquering all of North Africa - Marrakesh was mostly unguarded and they didn't spend any effort defending it. In games where the Moors were weak, they turtled with so many crossbows that nothing would take that city until firearms get discovered.
  • Spain needs to be at war, but Cordoba still needs to be in the Moors hands, if their capital is threatened they'll focus on that
  • Bring a crossbow to absorb their random skirmisher attacks/random barbarian attacks (that stupid camel archer in my screenshot could have ruined everything)
  • I switched to despotism, conquest, and regulated trade on my first turn. Conquest for the bonus XP and despotism for the obvious whip. You'll never get an army built on time otherwise, and if Moors are running theocracy you might run into Hill Defense II crossbows, and that's just awful.
  • This game is also on marathon, if that matters. I tried it on epic this morning and the transit times just ate up too many turns.
Now I've fulfilled King Sebastian's dream, 300 years early. Let's see what happens next... or I'll go back to bed and rest. That's probably smarter.
 

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Success! The Morocco strategy works! Thanks to Marrakesh I was able to build enough additional units and ships to settle Cape Verde, El Mina, Sao Tome, Angola, and Socotra (truly an awful colony). I was also able to capture Mozambique from the natives as well as the Malabar coast. My 35% control of the Indian Ocean Route:
Spoiler :
Portugal 1.jpg

Portugal 2.jpg

Portugal 3.jpg

Portugal 4.jpg



Thoughts:
  • Because they're in Africa, Cape Verde and Sao Tome can at least have slaves settled in them to make them productive. Socotra, while having access to the most Indian Trade Route sea tiles out of any potential colony site, is part of Arabia and cannot have slaves settled there. If you land an army in Arabia you can raze San'a and get access to one coffee, but if you capture/settle Aden (no longer in Portugal's stability map for some reason) you can get TWO coffees for the price of one! And if Arabia is dead you can't even sell Soctora to them when you're done with this historical goal. It exists to drain your treasure and overextend you. In real life, Socotra doesn't have much going for it besides ecological diversity and being a good naval base location. In Civ, neither of these matter much, especially for Portugal, which lost all its historical conquest areas in the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden region besides this. It would be nice if there was reason besides the UHV to settle these awful little colonies. Sao Tome alone will be worth something after the colonial era because of all that oil nearby.
  • If Arabia and Tamils aren't dead this 35% goal is going to be a lot harder. I was lucky Tamils collapsed after the trading company event allowing me a somewhat east conquest of southern India.
  • Getting that 35% required manipulating the culture slider, I ran 10% for a long time and then 40% for the final 5 or so turns. I suppose the early 16th century is Portugal's golden age, so having a period of cultural bloom is historical.
  • I seethed as I watched France start settling Brazil. But there's no reason for extensive colonization of Brazil (you can't see it in my screenshots but they settled near Belem), Malaya and India have most of your trading company resources already. Very strange how Brazil has so little to do with the current UHV but I have faith Leoreth will revise Portugal sufficiently in the future.
  • Lisboa being your only core city means you have to build every possible health building in that city. I'm dreading the return of the plague because it's gonna hit my stability bad, I fear.
Going for the trading company resources goal next. I already got the open borders one by accident in 1435.
 
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Getting that 35% required manipulating the culture slider, I ran 10% for a long time and then 40% for the final 5 or so turns. I suppose the early 16th century is Portugal's golden age, so having a period of cultural bloom is historical
I got the missing % by triggering conquistadors event and shipping them to conquer all Kilwa cities. I also did not settle (and thought of!) Socotra. It's true it has the best tiles for the UHV.

Maybe one suggestion for Leoreth: possibly add Madeira & Azores to the India route? This could incentivate settling either, cause they're pretty forgettable. What you guys think?
 
Victory achieved in 1630.
Spoiler :
Portugal 5.jpg


Don't let those 4 hours recorded fool you, I probably spent double that exploring alternate strategies from certain "checkpoints" (capturing Marrakesh, deciding whether or not to go to war with Kilwa, deciding on peaceful or war trading company event...)

Notes on the last 80 years of the game:
  • It turns out Brazil is necessary... as insurance against British conquerors. And because it's Britain, and their broken tech rate, they had economics AND replaceable parts in ~1610 and their musketeers appeared all over India and Malaya. I lost Singapore very quickly, but thanks to Malayan culture and me pillaging my own mine, they were stopped from advancing up the peninsula to Chaiya by the rainforest. British bias also ensured their culture instantly overrode mine when conquering cities north of mine in India, even though I'd been building culture there far longer. God I hate Britain. One Boston tea party wasn't enough.
  • As my trading company resource count plummeted from 11 to 8 thanks to the Br*tish, I pivoted my attention to Brazil, where the French and Dutch had settled the north. I had to build a new army and ship them over there, and engage in a short but bloody war to conquer those colonies (and raze the useless ones the AI loves to squeeze in everywhere as of 1.18). Very realistic, actually, except that it was the Dutch who kicked the Portuguese out of the far east, not the Br*tish. Close enough, they're both Germanic protestants.
  • I discovered more plantation/orchard resources that slaves cannot turn into slave plantations in Brazil without either a road or chopping the forest. It's strange because in the 1700 scenario I can plop a slave down on some of these without any problem at all. A bug, or intended behavior?
  • As the game went on I was able to pawn off some of my less productive/larger population colonies. I got Kilwa to take Socotra off my hands after 1600. Once I'd won, I handed off El Mina to the Dutch as "war reparations" for taking their northern Brazilian colonies, and I gave Chaiya to the British. This brought my stability way up as well as my economy, allowing me to settle Brazil more thoroughly. I'm not really sure why since I already won but it feels nice.
  • In the 1660s, France got their India conquerors and took southern India, which improved my economy even more. I was laughing all the way to the bank as they pillaged those mines and plantations, only to end up with barren land and cities that did nothing but drain their treasury. The AI really shouldn't be pillaging stuff it wants to capture... And I great engineer'd Versailles to rub salt in the wound.
  • Sadly I missed Torre de Belem. I got a great scientist instead of a great engineer, but that great scientist researched Physics for me for those delicious cannons. Worth it, they ate through Dutch and French arquebusiers in Brazil.
The roads not taken:
  • One big choice I made was not to get the conquerors armies. If I had gotten those and taken the financial hit from the mercenary upkeep, I probably could have kicked off my India conquest a lot earlier and gotten those 12 trading company resources before Britain got economics. Then again, if I'd done that, I may not have been able to tech to colonialism as quickly as I did (I think I got geography around the time the Dutch spawned), which is a life saver civic. More experiments will have to be done.
  • Another big choice was the trading company event. Did I pay and get cities+their culture (vital for Ceylon for that trade route %) and a token garrison? Or did I go for the armies option, and evacuate the Malayan armies to India? I tried this second strategy first. Malayan djongs schlonged my carracks and caused my army to get trapped in Malaya for far too long, which ruined the timing of everything else I was planning to do. I cannot find any instance of Portuguese heavy ships being captured or sunk by Indians, Malayans, or Javanese in the 16th century (correct me if I'm wrong, someone, I plan to do a deep dive on this later). The ships they did lose were low to the water galleys, which were cheaper and more suited to the shallow estuaries of Malacca and Sumatra where much of the fighting in this region took place.
  • What if I'd invested more time in settling Brazil instead of building health buildings in Lisboa? Would I have had to fight that war in the 1620s against the Dutch and French? Or would I have collapsed from overextension due to a smaller Lisboa and larger periphery population?
And finally, a comparison of my trade before and after bulbing nationalism and entering the industrial era:
Spoiler Unique power before and after expiration :
Portugal trade 1.jpg
Portugal trade 2.jpg


It's a 50 commerce difference. Somehow I gained 2 gold per turn. Make of that unique power what you will.
 
I had a long draft I never posted and now its gone so here's the TLDR: (Monarch/Epic)
  • First phase is mostly the same: Get an early scout out to maximize opportunities to fill in PreReq Techs, customers to later sell maps to, and supplement resources to keep the capital growing. Build order still focused on growth.
  • Marrakesh gambit almost definitely probably isnt worth it. Ran parallel games: in one I used Conq armies against Morroco; in another I sent them straight at Kongo and Kilwa. Marrakesh *eventually* grew into a production powerhouse but not in time to useful and losses are to be expected.
  • New World Conqueror armies are the key, the linchpin. Lisbon is now to be built as a Ship rather than a settler factory. Fighting the Aztecs and Incans (for vassals) will pop a Great General for an armory to build more ships. Prior to this your capital needs to grow to the max to get our GMs to fund the armies.
  • The allure of Ass-Tier settlements (St. Helena, Socotra, etc) that capture max Indian Route tiles seems to be deceptive and predicated on the probably now-obsolete "Settlement over Conquest" meta. Now we Conquer the principal cities and use Settlers to augment them with a few new settlements to supplement.
  • Currently, I'm unable to assign any relevance to building the Trading Company, which feels super cursed (with the understanding that the building represents the entire enterprise). This will change so play as if it still matter (keep popping that first GE). For now, assuming both Conq armies, the main bottleneck is transport time, since Kongo and Kilwa fold without resistance.
  • Important Note: Carracks can Bombard defenses now (You're welcome! hehe it was my proposal) making a swarm that much more valuable than before.
Obviously I took part in this MetaStrat dicussion but I hope we dont get too carried away in this temporal pursuit rather than the grander goal of shaping the Portugal Game for the next big phase. Consequently this might have helped to a degree at least insofar as it exposes a very ahistorical "gamey" play at the heart: reliance on the InstaArmies from First Contact. I works; it just doesnt feel right. I can already imagine a simple tweak to fit the situation that would only consist of readdressing TC targets to those relevant to the UHVs. I've also been mulling over a UP that incentivizes and properly rewards early exploration and settlement in the direction of India (think something like getting the full benefits of a Renaissance-Era settler but with Cartography).
 
And finally, a comparison of my trade before and after bulbing nationalism and entering the industrial era:
Did you take a look at the next turn? I think the game needs one update to the trade routes so that it actually notices things have changed. (such updates taking place at a new turn or signing open borders)
I also think the commerce overview is basically doing a separate calculation, thus the disagreement.
 
Did you take a look at the next turn? I think the game needs one update to the trade routes so that it actually notices things have changed. (such updates taking place at a new turn or signing open borders)
I also think the commerce overview is basically doing a separate calculation, thus the disagreement.
Good point, here's what happened after I ended the turn:
Spoiler :
Portugal trade 3.jpg


From 53 to 20 gold a turn is a bigger hit, but it's the difference of a 10% slider change. Marginally helpful, I suppose.
Important Note: Carracks can Bombard defenses now (You're welcome! hehe it was my proposal) making a swarm that much more valuable than before.
Thank you for that, I was shocked to find out that when I promoted my carracks to frigates they lost the bombardment ability.
Obviously I took part in this MetaStrat dicussion but I hope we dont get too carried away in this temporal pursuit rather than the grander goal of shaping the Portugal Game for the next big phase. Consequently this might have helped to a degree at least insofar as it exposes a very ahistorical "gamey" play at the heart: reliance on the InstaArmies from First Contact. I works; it just doesnt feel right. I can already imagine a simple tweak to fit the situation that would only consist of readdressing TC targets to those relevant to the UHVs. I've also been mulling over a UP that incentivizes and properly rewards early exploration and settlement in the direction of India (think something like getting the full benefits of a Renaissance-Era settler but with Cartography).
I find playing through the country as designed helps find areas in its implementation that can be done better. For example, the UP being worth 10% of a slider when it expires. Or as you said, reliance on conquerors from the first contact and the TC being mostly irrelevant to your UHV. If the TC targeted Kilwa and the west coast of India instead of Ceylon and Malacca, that would be far more helpful.

I've also been thinking about the carrack as a unique unit. Right now it's in a good place, but historically speaking, the carrack had far more cargo capacity than a galleon, pound for pound. It was also heavier and clumsier. The Portuguese kept using them for the India armadas into the 17th century because they were incredibly economical, stable in heavy seas, and safe from extra-European pirates (their sides were too tall for Barbary, Indian, and Malayan/Javanese pirates to scale under fire). However, they were easy targets for the nimbler, faster, and just as tall European galleons (a design that emerged as a compromise between a lateen-rigged caravel's agility and tacking ability and a square-rigged carrack's speed and carrying capacity - splitting the galleon into the current cargo galleon and a pre-frigate war galleon appeals to me but I'm a naval nerd who wants to overhaul the entire naval unit tree).

My ideal carrack/nao would be a caravel replacement* available with cartography that has less raw strength (and movement? with 3 cargo slots I'd say keep the 6 speed, with 4 give it 5 speed) than the standard galleon, but has a combat bonus against coastal ships (galleasses, war galleys, cogs, and associated UUs). Keep the bombardment ability and give it 3 (or 4) cargo slots. The result is a ship that is powerful in Africa, India, and the East Indies (and situationally even the Mediterranean), and has an incentive to stick around after obsolescence because of its usefulness, but gets swept aside by European ships as soon as everyone else has exploration.

*initially I wrote this as a galleon replacement, but this would make the caravel pointless for Portugal, and gives the player a choice: keep the weaker but situationally useful carrack, or upgrade them to galleons and have a fighting chance against the other Europeans. The unit I came up with is probably too strong to be a caravel replacement, though.

Edit: my idea would work a lot better if there was a war galleon unit (upgrade from galleass/caravel) and a merchantman unit (upgrade from galleon). Since caravels upgrade to frigates currently, if they upgraded into war galleons instead the Portugal player would be given a choice between the East Indies-focused carrack and the European-focused war galleon upgrade. The standard transport galleon would be also available to Portugal to build - in reality Portugal built war and trade galleons alongside carracks, and they mostly stayed in European waters during the Iberian Union. By the time of the Portuguese restoration, galleons and carracks had given way to frigates and merchantmen. That might be a lot of upgrades in a short time, but think of all the light cavalry we currently have!
 
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A few voices have spoken in favor of adding Madeira's nearby sea tiles to Indian Trade Route. I would like to get on record as tentatively against these proposals. Historicity: *If* I've got my history right, Madeira wasn't a part of the overseas maritime network either as a staging post, resupply base, or factory. These roles were filled by nearby the Cape Verdes, which were a key part in the imperial machine. Gameplay: It would be too much of a "freebie"; no competition, a single tun from capital, low maintenance. In other words, I foresee a negative impact on challenge factor, even if it admittedly kinda sucks as an asset.
 
A few voices have spoken in favor of adding Madeira's nearby sea tiles to Indian Trade Route. I would like to get on record as tentatively against these proposals. Historicity: *If* I've got my history right, Madeira wasn't a part of the overseas maritime network either as a staging post, resupply base, or factory. These roles were filled by nearby the Cape Verdes, which were a key part in the imperial machine. Gameplay: It would be too much of a "freebie"; no competition, a single tun from capital, low maintenance. In other words, I foresee a negative impact on challenge factor, even if it admittedly kinda sucks as an asset.
You are correct. Cape Verde was usually the first stop on the outbound journey to India (Madeira was sometimes an emergency stop or meeting point if things immediately went wrong) - and the Azores were usually the last stop on the inbound journey. One look at the volta do mar (Atlantic currents) will explain why:
Spoiler :
volta do mar.jpg


I maintain the Azores should be a core tile for Portugal, since they've been continuously Portuguese inhabited for almost 600 years. But at least adding the Indian Trade Route to their sea tiles would be helpful for the goal and give a reason to settle an otherwise terrible one tile island.

I also think it would be helpful if these two terrible one tile islands had some historically present trading company resources: sugar on the Azores, and sugar or cotton on Cape Verde (Cape Verde also exported salt if that's too many TC resources in easy reach of Portugal).
 
I also think it would be helpful if these two terrible one tile islands had some historically present trading company resources: sugar on the Azores, and sugar or cotton on Cape Verde (Cape Verde also exported salt if that's too many TC resources in easy reach of Portugal).
I'm on board with giving more single-tile islands a resource, even if just staple/health to at least boost the tile itself (True DoC fanatics know cities get the full yield), and perhaps changing a few to Hills.
But at least adding the Indian Trade Route to their sea tiles would be helpful for the goal and give a reason to settle an otherwise terrible one tile island.
I agree totally that doing this *would* be helpful toward the goal and its this that makes me hesitant about adding them; that is, the challenge factor. I do say *hesitant*, with the further qualification "in the game's current state"; not outright opposed now and forever. I also hesitate to dig in on any single stance given how much is likely to change to the broader game in the near future as Leoreth starts addressing the big ol' glaring stuff. I mean if he drops into this thread and asks "Should I try more Indian Trade tiles?" I'd give a nod ✌️.
 
Yeah, at present, more Indian trade tiles eould be what I want most. Azores being a core tile would be #2 - 35% of that trade route got me over extended and only pawning off many of those colonies after 1550 saved me from collapse. Not historical, Portugal was the first colonial empire and the last (direct) colonial empire, their collapse was due to civic changes (Carnation revolution) and war weariness.

On another note, my thoughts about further carrack changes grew into dreamed up changes for the whole Renaissance era of ships. This is the wrong thread for it and the wrong time to even propose messing with the unit tree but it’s been a fun thought experiment.
 
Yeah that really hurt Ponta Delgada. But with the new UP and bigger map core population is more important than ever, so I would settle it in a heartbeat if it added to my core pop.
 
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