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The POTUS decides to be a chicken, pulls out of Afghanistan

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by caketastydelish, Apr 17, 2021.

  1. Naskra

    Naskra Emperor

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    Such a curious expression.
     
  2. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    the cease fire began under Trump
     
  3. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    Taliban is much more cohesive than Al Qaeda. In Al Qaeda you got some differences. Between Bin Laden, Abu Musab Al Suri or even more extreme Zarqawi able to react independently and disagree with each other. I think Taliban view is much more in-line with the view of Abdullah Azzam which favor to focus more on Afghanistan than expanding the operation globally.

    Taliban now is need to set a strong foot-hold and create a platform for their government therefore when there are room for communication it would always be the preferable option than paving a way to the cause through terror operation. Because that would invite another decades of wars with China, it would surely hurts all party; the war will cost China a lot, like a lot, and the war would push further oppression and discrimination toward Uyghur or even Hui Muslim and it would be another long war for the whole Afghanistan to be patience with.

    Having said that I don't think they set aside the problems of Uyghurs, given many Uyghurs from the moderate to the Islamist detest Taliban heavily due to their deal with China, but after decades of war, they need to rebuild and when there are room for communication and negotiation or other non-violent option it would be prefer. This is also similar like how the Afghani would not detest Uyghurs for seeking help and assistance from US government, even though US were showering Afghanistan with bullets and bomb for decades, opening prison complex where peoples get lock up without trials, but they do understand that they are in humanitarian crisis, and they need any kind of help that they can possibly have.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
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  4. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    The "NGO" are very much part of the "national security" establishment there."non-governmental" with grants from the sate department/usaid, defense agencies, a number of front companies used by the two dozen intelligence services...

    That is undeniably true. They defeated the other fighters and managed to do expand quickly through negotiation, without having to get bogged down in prolonged fighting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
  5. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Only had to release the leader of the Taliban, 5000 Taliban fighters, 6 high profile prisoners in Gitmo
    And invite the Taliban to camp David during the week of 9-11.
     
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  6. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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  7. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Trump got a cease fire out of it, Obama got a deserter

    https://nypost.com/2021/08/16/taliban-leader-was-freed-from-guantanamo-in-2014-swap-by-obama/
     
    João III likes this.
  8. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    I'm kind of sceptical because it seems to me that Afghanistan is a very decentralised polity in the first place. Which probably explains why a strongman has not appeared like in many Middle Eastern states - there is no one man who can unite the country under authoritarian rule. If that could be done, the US would have gone for it. But evidently, not even Karzai could manage that despite having been a popular warlord, a typical candidate for such a ruler. The only things that seem to bind many Afghans together is religion and the Pashtun identity, which the Taliban's ideology is derived from.

    Given this, why would the Taliban be able to dictate that every mujahideen cannot do something about Xinjiang? If they tried to police it and punish people for doing something, that would only cause internal strife as it would be seen as a betrayal of a key pillar of their ideology.

    IMO, the Taliban is just paying any kind of lip service they need for now to solidify their rule. Yes, there may have been generational change and not everything will go back to pre-2001. But I don't see how the Taliban can navigate the politics that allowed it to seize back control and at the same time excise the mujahideen part of their identity. It was this identity that led them to support Al-Qaeda, and even if they would play it safer from now on, they'd just be less open about doing it.

    And I highly doubt China would invade Afghanistan. Any kind of conflict with China would not happen beyond Chinese borders. Things might change in two decades, but for the foreseeable future, I don't think China is ready for foreign adventures.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
  9. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    Taliban was able to achieve what Shia able to achieve in Iran, their main identity is not solely around being a Mujahideen anymore.

    Al Qaeda was not as they expected, one of the Taliban leader once said, they first came here as a guest but end acting up like our master, this implied to how Al Qaeda use their land as a training platform however fail to coordinate for every operation they have done to Taliban, because Al Qaeda know that Taliban is indifferent to operation like bombing American embassy in Sudan or 911. They just welcome Al Qaeda because most of the members are their Muhajirin comrades during Soviet invasion and because they are Muslims organization, I mean note that this is late 90s Al Qaeda when they still play around with how they can reach their goal which mostly being architect by Al Suri.

    Taliban is different than Al Qaeda in the sense that this not a global Jihad organization, it doesn't share the goal of removing USian troops in Peninsula or to stop supporting the middle-east tyrant by bombing infrastructures abroad as messages.
     
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  10. Colon

    Colon King

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    I bet the cover designer at the Economist was expecting s/he didn't have to make such cover about an American president again for at least a few more years:

     
  11. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    What made those people cling to gear?
    Either they were unaware it's impossible to travel this way, or they were absolutely desperate and 100% certain they will be killed by Taliban.
     
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  12. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    Who knows, and it is difficult for them to answer now. I would guess it is a combination, with 2 other points to add to yours:
    • Not really thinking clearly/making good decisions because of fear and sleep deprivation
    • Thinking the plane would not take off with them on the outside, as most planes do not.
     
  13. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    In poor countries people often cling on the outsides of buses, they may think that they can do that with planes.
     
  14. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    This is just one of tens of thousands of examples, of the media aligned with the Military-Industrial complex trying to punish Biden for daring to withdraw. All these scenes aren't great. But coverage of Afghanistan before this was non-existent. The explosive Afghanistan papers, which showed US leaders had no idea what to do, were systemically lying to the public, and were racking up heavy spending and casualties to Afghan citizens. Didn't even last a week-long news cycle it was brushed under the rug by the media memory hole.

    This is how much the mainstream covered Afghanistan



    Minutes, not hours. 5 minutes, in 2020, when the Afghan army was already crumbling, Trump was trying to leave, and the Afghanistan Papers had only been published the year before (which warranted, a combined across three networks, 71 minutes. So barely over an hour, across three different channels.

    Look at how scant the coverage is, over the entire Trump years, despite him escalating the bombing of Afghanistan to never before seen highs, sending civilian casualties skyrocketing and half heartedly fighting with the military brass to withdraw.

    Now, my guess is that the chart will be at 2001 levels, or at least the surge levels of 2009-2010. All in a relentless effort to force, Biden to take an approval hit. They want it to happen. Even MSNBC which conservatives pretend is the Liberal Fox News, deliberately won't book pro withdrawal guests, even ones that have booked before. Instead, they platform packs of liars from the Bush admin.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
  15. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Deity

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    So, in the crazy islamist fanatics Hall of Fame we have by order of fanatical crazyness:
    1- DAESH
    2- Al-Qaeda
    3- Taliban
     
  16. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    The US took a load of biometric data from people who worked for them, and left it and the kits lying around for the Taliban to use:

    The giant stores of biometric data collected by both the US military and the Afghan government could, some argue, pose a risk to those facing reprisals.

    Using handheld devices called HIIDE (Handheld Interagency Identity Detection Equipment), soldiers like Mr Kiernan would add the details of Afghans to a US biometric store.
    "You had a device about 12 inches by six inches wide. It would scan their fingerprints, it would scan their retina, it would also take a picture of them."

    On Tuesday, news site the Intercept said military sources had told it that some HIIDE devices had fallen into Taliban hands, while Reuters reported a Kabul resident saying the Taliban were making house-to-house inspections using a "biometrics machine".
    An Afghan official told NewScientist biometric infrastructure was now in the hands of the Taliban.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
  17. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Deity

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    This makes me think USA really had not a clue about what was going to happen once they left. So after 20 years being there they didn't really know what was Afghanistan about...
     
  18. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    The idea was that Afghan people will be impressed by awesomeness of installed liberal democracy.
    And that majority of people will rather fight to defend it, than against it.
     
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  19. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    See if you notice the comprehension issue with this paragraph



    Something like this could be in a fairly basic English comprehension exam. And these journalists at multiple papers, and their editors, and of course a bunch of the dumbass readership failed it.

    Just to make it clear 'Biden and co, accelerated their withdrawal well before, what the on the ground embassy people were saying the collapse date would be ... and now war-hungry journalists want to make it a dunk that they did so, and that the army the Hawks spent trillions building, folded even faster'.


    Also in terms of the corruption standpoint, this is pretty telling.



    Explicitly not even going to try. No wonder Biden was so against the surge when stuff like this was being said to him. Too bad Obama listened to Clinton, and not Biden.
     
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  20. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Well, sure, I don't disagree, but my point is more just that Biden can't fire her because she doesn't work for him.
     
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