The POTUS decides to be a chicken, pulls out of Afghanistan

[bernie14]

Yes, absolutely what you described in the previous post (an occupation of Afghanistan lasting, what, fifty years? a hundred?) would be "taking up the white man's burden." Your framing it as "taking responsibility for clearing up a mess we made" has not only been done before by fans of the white man's burden, it is also a convenient way to sidestep the problem that the "mess" you mention was caused by the US invasion and could never have been solved by US military action.

Hilariously, google dictionary even lists "burden" as a "similar" world to "responsibility," lmao. Not euphemistic enough!



Actually, it's pretty clear that authoritarian extremists mostly prefer to purposely expose people to diseases: both Stalin and the Nazis killed many thousands of people by putting them in camps where preventable diseases ran rampant, and as noted previously in this thread the Nazis loosened vaccine mandates when they came to power in Germany.

The governor of your state is currently treating the people of your state a bit like concentration camp inmates, taking just about every possible measure to ensure they are infected with a deadly virus. The party you prefer and vote for has already shown its authoritarian colors, attempting to overturn the 2020 election and taking steps to ensure future elections are rigged/meaningless (just look at the electoral map of Texas they've drawn).

But, yes, quite clearly, I'm the authoritarian extremist because I actually want to stop people from dying of covid.



It's not a joke - if you want to hear a joke, imagine someone taking r16's lizard bit seriously and writing several paragraphs explaining that lizards don't actually control the world.

Your stance of what a concentration camp is and who you would place in them is just honesty confusing to me.

and are you saying that Desantis is preventing people from getting vaccinated?

 

[red_elk]

What a nonsense, lizards don't control the world. They are just stupid animals.
It's reptiloids who do, intelligent alien specimen who are able to take human form.

 

[Jukebox The Ghoul]

Your stance of what a concentration camp is and who you would place in them is just honesty confusing to me.

and are you saying that Desantis is preventing people from getting vaccinated?

Listen, this is very easy to connect the dots. Desantis and various republican politicians and republican-aligned media have all been signalling toward anti vaxx and anti-mask, I believe recently Desantis went all big government and forbade schools from implementing mask mandates? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ck-governor-s-mask-mandate-rule-risking-funds Yep. Seems so.

Signalling it, legitimizing it, forbidding mask mandates, all have a body count.
And here are studies (they are hundreds of them) showing vaccine misinfo and covid 19 misinfo has lead to people getting hurt, getting poisoned, and refusing to get the vaccine,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7721433/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7771267/#bib0200
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930676/
and need I mention over 90% of covid deaths are from the unvaccinated. https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...19-hospitalizations-deaths-per-cdc/ar-AAOoJcH


Pretending that any of this is up for debate when vaccines are proven to work is extremely dangerous.

 

[bernie14]

Listen, this is very easy to connect the dots. Desantis and various republican politicians and republican-aligned media have all been signalling toward anti vaxx and anti-mask, I believe recently Desantis went all big government and forbade schools from implementing mask mandates? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ck-governor-s-mask-mandate-rule-risking-funds Yep. Seems so.

Signalling it, legitimizing it, forbidding mask mandates, all have a body count.
And here are studies (they are hundreds of them) showing vaccine misinfo and covid 19 misinfo has lead to people getting hurt, getting poisoned, and refusing to get the vaccine,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7721433/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7771267/#bib0200
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930676/
and need I mention over 90% of covid deaths are from the unvaccinated. https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...19-hospitalizations-deaths-per-cdc/ar-AAOoJcH


Pretending that any of this is up for debate when vaccines are proven to work is extremely dangerous.

Dots, dots, dots.....unvaccinated....dots, dots, dots...
Is Desantis preventing anyone from getting vaccinated? Its a simple question

 

[Gorbles]

Dots, dots, dots.....unvaccinated....dots, dots, dots...
Is Desantis preventing anyone from getting vaccinated? Its a simple question

Yes.

To answer the "how" that's coming, please refer to his actions as detailed in previous posts.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't know if you've been in a coma or living under a rock, or something, because I literally have no other explanation for someone living on earth being so ignorant about how conspiracies have been mainstreamed so much that members of congress are talking about QAnon, jewish space lasers, comparing health and safety policy to the holocaust and denying objective facts like the outcome of the 2020 presidential election. ( https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1437096311522738180 ) ( https://secondnexus.com/believing-trump-won-cnn-poll ) I hope I don't need to prove this any more to you. There are people out there who sincerely believe that lizards control the world. It makes sense to debunk that claim like any other.

r16 doesn't believe in lizard people, and I can assure you that "debunking" lizard-person conspiracy theories is not a good use of anyone's time.

I don't see how this could be a white man's burden, unless you are seem to believe that America is a "white country". If only the african americans paid for reparations to afghanistan would that suddenly get rid of the white man's burden accusation? If you meant rich man's burden, which in that case hell yeah I'm for the rich pitching in their fair share. My suggestion had 1. nothing to do with continued occupation. We should have done this earlier but we didn't. We could even do it more inaccurately from outside the country. 2. Had nothing to do with whether Afghans are inferior or whatever, 3. I did not say it was the responsibility of white people to pull up each and every non-white country because "they can't do it themselves". You're attacking a man made of straw. If I got drunk and wrecked your car, you'd expect me to atleast partially pay for its repair or replacement. And if I'm a white and you're black, this expectation would be no different, and no it wouldn't be white man's burden.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5478/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden

and are you saying that Desantis is preventing people from getting vaccinated?

Are you saying he is not taking measures to accelerate the spread of the disease?

 

[Jukebox The Ghoul]

r16 doesn't believe in lizard people, and I can assure you that "debunking" lizard-person conspiracy theories is not a good use of anyone's time.



http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5478/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden

I'm sorry I'm not going to assemble your argument for you. Answer the questions I put forward.

As for r16's beliefs, have you heard of something called a public forum? Other people read this site. I couldn't care less if r16 secretly believed the lizards were the spawn of satan and a fish called Phillip or if r16 was just a comedian doing all of this for an elaborate television show. It is immaterial to me what he believes, I care that nobody else sees it and believes it.

 

[Lexicus]

Answer the questions I put forward.

What, this question?

If only the african americans paid for reparations to afghanistan would that suddenly get rid of the white man's burden accusation

Why would I answer a silly question based on a misconceived premise? You asked this question because you didn't understand what "white man's burden" means, and I provided you with the information needed to correct your misunderstanding.

As for r16's beliefs, have you heard of something called a public forum? Other people read this site. I couldn't care less if r16 secretly believed the lizards were the spawn of satan and a fish called Phillip or if r16 was just a comedian doing all of this for an elaborate television show. It is immaterial to me what he believes, I care that nobody else sees it and believes it.

Ah, very...heroic.

 

[Jukebox The Ghoul]

What, this question?

Why would I answer a silly question based on a misconceived premise? You asked this question because you didn't understand what "white man's burden" means, and I provided you with the information needed to correct your misunderstanding.

Because you can correct my misconceived premises with your answer if indeed I do have them and you are not just avoiding answer these questions because you know your accusation is flawed.
Buddy, you haven't even argued against my arguments, you exclusively just said "no cant do that, america is white" and frankly, I couldn't care less whose doing the paying. Just help these people!

Ah, very...heroic.

Heroism is when I want people to not be bad at thinking?

 

[red_elk]

Because you can correct my misconceived premises with your answer if indeed I do have them and you are not just avoiding answer these questions because you know your accusation is flawed.

"White man's burden" is about imperialism and colonialism, rather than racism. It's a reference to well known poem by Rudyard Kipling.

 

[Samson]

"White man's burden" is about imperialism and colonialism, rather than racism. It's a reference to well known poem by Rudyard Kipling.

It is a reference to the well known poem that is advocating for the violent annexation of the Philippines by the famous racist Rudyard Kipling.

 

[Jukebox The Ghoul]

"White man's burden" is about imperialism and colonialism, rather than racism. It's a reference to well known poem by Rudyard Kipling.

Okay, so why can't we invest money in Afghanistan?

 

[Jukebox The Ghoul]

It is a reference to the well known poem that is advocating for the violent annexation of the Philippines by the famous racist Rudyard Kipling.

Yeah that's not what I'm advocating, I'm saying invest in Afghanistan, which is why it is confusing that Lexicus thinks this is a slam dunk. If like giving reparations to Afghanistan is colonialist (money with no strings attached) then doesn't that imply like western countries can never ever interact with other nations, like a kind of "seperate but equal" type thing? Idk I think everyone should be able to live comfortably and if that involves wealth redistribution I'm all for it.

 

[Samson]

Yeah that's not what I'm advocating, I'm saying invest in Afghanistan, which is why it is confusing that Lexicus thinks this is a slam dunk. If like giving reparations to Afghanistan is colonialist (money with no strings attached) then doesn't that imply like western countries can never ever interact with other nations, like a kind of "seperate but equal" type thing? Idk I think everyone should be able to live comfortably and if that involves wealth redistribution I'm all for it.

Yeah, I was responding to the point that "white mans burden does not have racist overtones" comment. I kind of agree with you, had we spent 10 times what we spent destroying the country on rebuilding the country there is a chance of us leaving it better than we found it.

 

[red_elk]

Okay, so why can't we invest money in Afghanistan?

You can invest money in Afghanistan. Not sure if it will be very profitable investment at this point though.
Your earlier suggestions looked like you proposed to continue occupation, rather than just investing.

Yeah, I was responding to the point that "white mans burden does not have racist overtones" comment.

I didn't say the poem doesn't have racist overtones.
The reference to the poem usually used when talking about colonialism, rather than racism, though.

 

[Samson]

I didn't say the poem doesn't have racist overtones.
The reference to the poem usually used when talking about colonialism, rather than racism, though.

While it is hard to say what any one person means when they reference it, the colonialism talked about in that poem (and pretty much everywhere it was implemented by "the west") is pretty inseparable from racism.

The White Man's Burden: civilizing the unwilling savage. (Detroit Journal, 1898)

 

[Jukebox The Ghoul]

You can invest money in Afghanistan. Not sure if it will be very profitable investment at this point though.
Your earlier suggestions looked like you proposed to continue occupation, rather than just investing.

No, I wasn't proposing that. I was saying it would be good if we actually invested in it before we left as now we can't oversee corruption or provide services as directly if we were there. But the usa was not actually building up Afghanistan and I regard that as a failure of Afghanistan war and its leaders.

 

[Lexicus]

Okay, so why can't we invest money in Afghanistan?

The simple answer, from your point of view, is that the Taliban are now in charge of Afghanistan. If you don't want to "invest in" the Taliban, you're going to need some kind of, I don't know, military presence there....

But the usa was not actually building up Afghanistan and I regard that as a failure of Afghanistan war and its leaders.

What would you have done differently? Whence this idea that you can just do imperialism "the right way" and everything will be fine?

"White man's burden" is about imperialism and colonialism, rather than racism. It's a reference to well known poem by Rudyard Kipling.

Of course it's also about racism. It's literally right there in the name!

 

[Gelion]

It's right there.^^^^
Maybe this shouldn't be such a surprise considering they speak so cryptically and you seem to be intent on pointing out facile differences without disproving my thesis.

You are right r16 talked about ground forces in Taiwan, although a land invasion is the most probable use of those forces, I read them more in their anti-air capacity. Whats your thesis by the way?

Sure, no lessons at all have showed military force to be insufficient. Nothing stopped raw military power, not in Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iraq... the rise of ISIS... nothing to learn from these events at all. Sure, militaries aren't to be taken lightly, but China's every outright military operation would gamble with a mass embargo

I was talking about military pressure against China. No lessons have proven that military force is the only deterrent?! Libya without nuclear weapons is in ruins, North Korea with those weapons is not.

And yes your Japan-US example doesn't actually prove what you think it does. The US began to economically sanction and embargo Japan for the war crimes it did in china. This meant Japan was provoked in to attack the USA (regardless how moral you consider the embargo reason) by the blockade. It meant that Japan while economically dependent on the USA did not go to war with them, but now they had no option to with no oil coming in to their country.

It did? Specifically for that reason that interconnectedness made them go to war when it was inevitable. It didn't push Japan to negotiate with USA.

And no we're not talking past r16. If someone said they believe in what Karl Marx said, I'd ask them why they believe Marx's thought, not ask Karl Marx. I wouldn't ask the teacher why you believe her book is correct or bad or what ever.

If Karl Marx was in the room (as it is in this case) it would be impolite. Also it goes dangerously close to violating forum rules...

 

[Farm Boy]

Yeah, killing Ghaddaffi also killed nonproliferation. If I was responsible for keeping Taiwan independent in the face of the currently arrayed hard power pointed at it, yes, nuclear strike countervalue ability would probably be near national priority number one.