The problem with culture victories...

[Matthew.]

...is you can go for culture and still win with science.

Rolled Gandhi, so decided to try a nice, peaceful culture victory. Greece and Siam were my neighbors on my continent, and both taking all the city-states. So I puppet both their empires. Meanwhile, America dominated Celts and began working on Rome.

I didn't feel comfortable letting Washington go, so I manage to create a beachhead on the other continent, then proceeded to spam bombers across his empire. Took his capital with two atom bombs, just because.

Ended up with a science win at T334. Had one capital left to take for domination, which would have ended about the same time, and I could have gotten diplo much earlier. CV still had 3 policies before Utopia.

Now it was far from a perfect game. I missed Sistine by two turns, and I had to annex 3 additional cities (7 total). But I had put all focus into culture and still ended up winning by science. I was in a constant Golden Age for the last 100 turns, and was getting over 10% of policy cost per turn (~1,200 CPT) yet the game still dragged.

This is my usual experience with CV's; by the time I reach modern era, it is significantly quicker to finish the entire tech tree than wait out polices.

Am I doing something very wrong? Is anyone out there getting ~T315 or lower on CV's? Is the Piety tree not strong enough? Are culture games simply too slow?

 

[Matthew.]

30 policies would require CPT of 10% of cost for the entire game to manage a T315 win. I can hit that 10% and slightlyy over, but not until fairly late in the game. I just don't see how it is possible unless you are using a specific civ and get very lucky with culture city-states right from the start.

 

[DevilHell]

Well many things are you doing wrong.
I understand you puppet Greece and Siam, but warring with washington because he makes you worry is not a cultural victory's attitude.
Another thing, 4 cities is tops for CVs, annexing three more, specially late in the game, is quite a big flaw.
I have a question, how many Great Artists did you plant? When did you start burning them for GAs? Did you open Freedom ASAP? What policies did you take, in what order?
I although think, that Piety has been nerfed to the point that nobody never uses it, not even for CVs, it was really strong in vanilla.

The one thing I do clearly see, is that you are winning to easily, so my real advice to you, is to play a level higher.

 

[Hyperion529]

annexing those 3 cities sounds very wrong to me for a start. why do you HAD to do that, as you say?

 

[Petiscator]

Although anexing those cities seems like a really bad idea, I agree with the OP: I often see myself going for culture and winning by diplo/science. It bugs me a lot, it takes so much time that I could win the other ways in a faster rate... CV for me is the hardest, now on immortal, as I can usually get to the tech lead/dominate the world/ally all CS before the other AIs but I rarely get a cultural victory in time, even with France, oracle, sistine chapel, soh, piety, landmarks, etc, it just doesn't seem as fast as Science, for example

 

[chumchu]

Hmm...

I sometime find myself in the opposite situation if I am in an isolated spot. I had a babylon start on an island, with marble, salt and mountain. Went to a turn 265 culture win with 3 cities even though I aimed for science during the first half of the game. I used my tech lead and immense production to snag all important wonders which boosted my culture immensely.

 

[Buccaneer]

I understand you puppet Greece and Siam, but warring with washington because he makes you worry is not a cultural victory's attitude.
Another thing, 4 cities is tops for CVs, annexing three more, specially late in the game, is quite a big flaw.
I have a question, how many Great Artists did you plant? When did you start burning them for GAs? Did you open Freedom ASAP? What policies did you take, in what order?
I although think, that Piety has been nerfed to the point that nobody never uses it, not even for CVs, it was really strong in vanilla.

The one thing I do clearly see, is that you are winning to easily, so my real advice to you, is to play a level higher.

I agree with all but the first. There is no such thing as a "cultural victory's attitude". The only attitude is to win by a cultural victory by whatever (non-cheating) means. Beating all of your opponents down to one city each would accomplish this as well.

But if one is going for speed or efficiency or optimization, then there are things one should and shouldn't do, as stated in the other points.

 

[Matthew.]

Well many things are you doing wrong.

What else besides the obvious of annexing the cities? Which BTW was fairly late in the game and more out of response of knowing I wouldn't reach Utopia in time if I didn't intervene.

I missed out on Sistine, but wasn't going to throw the game right there and start over.

I understand you puppet Greece and Siam, but warring with washington because he makes you worry is not a cultural victory's attitude.

Cultural was going too slow and I didn't want him to sneak in science/diplo win. Granted, the AI sucks at getting around to completing the spaceship, but he was really dominating the other continent.

The annexed cities were for the beachhead needed on the other continent.

I have a question, how many Great Artists did you plant? When did you start burning them for GAs? Did you open Freedom ASAP? What policies did you take, in what order?

Culture part was solid. Can't remember the exact number of planted, but it was every great person except for one great scientist. Didn't start burning them until I could keep up golden permanently. Finished Freedom right when it opened.

although think that Piety has been nerfed to the point that nobody never uses it, not even for CVs, it was really strong in vanilla.

I took Rationalism.

I've played around with both, but unlocking culture buildings and wonders quicker (through science) seems to have had greater results. I have been trying out some Piety games, but the tree doesn't mesh well with play.

The one thing I do clearly see, is that you are winning to easily, so my real advice to you, is to play a level higher.

It was on Immortal. Part of the reason for trying to get quicker CV wins is so I can try it on Deity. I don't remember CV's in vanilla being difficult. Actually, CV's used to be one of the games I was most comfortable with.

 

[Matthew.]

I sometime find myself in the opposite situation if I am in an isolated spot. I had a babylon start on an island, with marble, salt and mountain. Went to a turn 265 culture win with 3 cities even though I aimed for science during the first half of the game. I used my tech lead and immense production to snag all important wonders which boosted my culture immensely.

Ignoring Babylon, are you getting sub 300 CV's regularly?

 

[Moriarte]

Am I doing something very wrong? Is anyone out there getting ~T315 or lower on CV's? Is the Piety tree not strong enough? Are culture games simply too slow?

Yes, t. 270 and faster are consistently possible for CV, yet you have to forget rationalism. In this thread you can find some answers as to how.

In short, Tradition -> Piety -> Half Patronage -> Freedom, etc is the strongest option for OCC or 2CC. For 4+ cities Tradition -> Liberty till reduced costs -> Piety, Half Patronage -> Freedom, etc is a good option too.

 

[Matthew.]

Thanks for the reply Mori.

I think the addition of religion and change/addition of a few of the wonders has set me off track, and I've been too focused on science games. I've not really played any culture games since G&K has been released.

 

[joncnunn]

In addition to the 4 normal cities tops; (puppets won't hurt especially if you decided the "anything" policy to be Honor), You need to go all out towards Cultural victory from very early on for it to be faster than science at 4 cities.
(Cultural wonders; Piety for the free closer and reduced policy; use money for cultural city states instead of RAs); but if you've become an expert in science victories; I'm thinking one of those 4 cities may also need to be a major cultural natural wonder for you to beat your science
With 3 cities having a cultural victory beat what the time you could have done a science victory in is easier.

 

[Halcyan2]

Puppet empires are certainly viable for Cultural Games and can be competitive.

However, I disagree that puppets are necessarily helpful or that they "won't hurt." If you're using Mandate of Heaven (through the Piety tree), I've often found that the happiness cost of a puppet isn't often worth it. This is especially true since G&K, when puppets now have a penalty (-25%?) to all of their output.

In some cases, keeping the happiness (for more GA's, and 1/2 culture through Mandate of Heaven) is more efficient than using it on puppeted cities.

Map type, resources near the puppet, and your SP choices will all influence whether or not puppets will actually help you achieve a Cultural Victory faster or slower.

 

[Matthew.]

Well, tried another game as Celts. Fractal map was split in two with me, Nebby, and my old buddy Washington on one side. I decide to try the "build 3 cities and hold" and ignore Washington this game. He spent half the game throwing units at my outer city. Had to give up one of my cities to try and buy time (was going to lose it anyway) at ~T280.

Lost my capital on T310. He built two boosters and then took my last city at T316. Both he and Ghengis were pulling in over 1,500 science per turn and in the Info era. I still had 4 policies before Utopia. I guessed if Washington left me alone, I'd probably have finished well past T365.

Pacing was exactly the same as the above game, only this time I had a third of the science and zero map control.

 

[Matthew.]

In some cases, keeping the happiness (for more GA's, and 1/2 culture through Mandate of Heaven) is more efficient than using it on puppeted cities.

Map control can be just as important. If you have puppets, the AI doesn't. Then again, I can't win a CV on Immortal, so my advice isn't worth much.

 

[chmcclellan]

While there is a scientific path to cultural victory (hitting late wonders - CR and SOH), cultural victory provides a victory path for extremely small empires. A 1-2 city empire can win a CV because of decreased policy cost but won't win a science victory.

For a long time I liked playing one city peacefully and could finish CV's in the early 300s. Recently I have been experimenting with adding a second city for additional science and gold and have achieved cultural victories on 267 and 277 (Emperor, Standard, Pangea, Small). In the second game I missed CR which slowed my last few policies, however in both games I finished before reaching SOH. In both games I used no puppets.

My policy path was:
Tradition -> Piety through 10% reduction -> Freedom -> Open Commerce (+25% Gold) -> Patronage -> Commerce Right Branch -> Finish Piety -> Finish Commerce.

Attached a screenshot from the 267 win.