The Problem With Europe

[Crossphazer]

It seems that in all of my RFC games where I'm not in Europe (at least not until Astronomy ), something happens to seriously mess up Europe, such as Super-Holland, or 75% independant Europe.

This seems to happen for the following reasons:
1.Rome always collapses. Because of this, another european nation will conquer the independants, making the nation overexpanded and forcing it near collapse. Then all it takes is one other bad event and they collapse.
Result? Super-Holland or Three Part France(collapsed France divided bewteen Spain, England/Germany and Netherlands)

2. Any event that causes 3 part France will invariably lead to war between two or more of these nations.
Result? Little colonial expansion, really messed up map of Europe

3. Any collapse/revival of any nation in Europe causes severe problems, as it is quite packed in Europe(e.g. revival of one collapses another)

4. Turns out Spain doesn't like poor Portugal and grinds it into dust (no more colonies in northern S Am )

 

[Mowque]

Hmmm, i have found Europe to be too stable,lol.....Rome (And Grecce to a lesser extent) are suually passed around, but that civ usually gets stronger, not the opposite?

 

[Crossphazer]

It depends on which civ captures it. If Germany gets Rom, Mailand+ Pompeii (w/e it's called in German), it will be OK, but if Netherlands go for it, that could be a problem

Also if France gets it it loses interest in N Am

 

[Mowque]

Isn't it good that the AI thinks correctly? Why invest into N Am if you have Rome?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Hmmm, i have found Europe to be too stable,lol.

Me too. I don't see that very troubled Europe the OP speaks of. Sure, meaningful wars are fought, but that's a good thing. In fact, I've found them too rare for my liking.

 

[Panopticon]

Netherlands and Portugal are indeed problematic. A lot of the OP's problems with the collapsed Holy Roman Empire and Rome are due to large military unit production by Euro civs with lots of others on their borders (e.g. Netherlands has 4 neigbhours for 1 city), independent cities not being able to defend themselves well, and the lack of diplomatic penalties for attacking them - meaning invasion is effectively costless.

 

[Úmarth]

I'm guessing you're talking about the 3000BC start so try the 600AD start. IMO there's a lot of difference between the two starts when it comes to Europe; in my experience the 600AD start leads to a more stable but also more predictable Europe (specifically they'll almost always all be Christian).

 

[thadian]

Also in 600AD Europe, despite germany going on a wrecking spree, france vs spain a lot more wierd things happen. I saw the Malinese conquer spain then collapse to independent. I have also seen America conquer England, i have seen Holland conquer germany then vassalize russia and i saw a pretty terrifying Viking Nations start by conquering Inverness before Englands spawn. Needless to say the English lived about 3 turns and the vikings went on to found American colonies and go on a rampage, that finally ended to a dual war with Mongol, a revived Egypt and their vassal - a revived Carthage.

600 AD Euro is fun, but in the BC era, your right about EU almost always following the same options you present above. What civ do you play? A lot more happens in europe when your in or near it, when i play somewhere else in the world, Europe just kind of sits there not affecting me no matter what they do. likewise if i am in Asia, i have yet to interact with America other than capitulating Monty, teching him up and going on a murder spree due to my fears of them getting a triumphal arch.

 

[onedreamer]

I only play the 3000 BC starts because I consider the 600 AD one an escamotage Rhye had to put up to please Firaxis, and therefor not the real RFC. This said, I don't witness what the OP has described, at least not on the regular basis he speaks of. I've read many times of the super-Holland, of the crumbling Germany, etc, but I've brought proofs of an often vassalized Netherlands (more often than not, actually) and an allmighty Germany (again more often than not). What I think is that selective memory plays a major role here...

 

[archontophoenix]

I've played many games where Europe was quite messed up. But I've discovered in attempting the Maya Challenge (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=275549) that when you really need a weak Europe, you always seem to get a strong Europe. Murphy's law is at work...

 

[Panopticon]

There is a real problem with Portuguese culture in Iberia, though. Lisbon is not culturally strong enough to last against 2-3 older Spanish cities including Madrid.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

There is a real problem with Portuguese culture in Iberia, though. Lisbon is not culturally strong enough to last against 2-3 older Spanish cities including Madrid.

The problem is that Spain tends to build another city on the coast most of the time, and Lisboa never flips any of them. If once in a blue moon Spain didn't do this, I usually found both Lisboa and Oporto which is more than strong enough to take out the whole west coast. I think RFC's representation of Portugal needs one more tile south.

 

[Panopticon]

Generally Spain will have:
Madrid + Santiago or La Coruna (West) + Cadiz or Sevilla (South) + Valencia (East).
Santiago will impose more pressure on Lisbon than La Coruna in the early game - it occupies a tile in Lisbon's BFC, for goodness' sake! Late game, the pressure from Madrid is the big problem and leads to losses of most tiles in Portugal, with over 80% Spanish culture.

 

[onedreamer]

Lisboa has enough food to run Artists and to hurry buildings with Slavery. Even if it did (or let's say, IF it did it) Spain would declare and most probably win on Portugal, so I don't see many solutions here.

 

[Jimman]

i dont find europe messed up, most of the time the european countries are really strong, i only ever find a weak europe when germany collapses

 

[thadian]

Normally, Germany will overexpand and collapse or it will get ganged by Netherlands and Russia.

 

[KnightoftheStar]

Normally, Germany will overexpand and collapse or it will get ganged by Netherlands and Russia.

Had that happen when I was playing as Germany, but that seems to happen where Germany pushes really hard then goes a tad too far and collapses leaving most of Europe a giant swath of independent cities.

 

[Crossphazer]

Indeed, Germany tends to collapse because it overexpands. This also might cause other nations to take its remains et collapse themselves.

 

[thadian]

Are civs capable of tracking their own stability? It is annoying when AI russia conquers India and then collapses for expanding beyond its means to support.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Althrough my evidence is a bit shaky - I tweaked siability to be more forgiving.