[RD] the problem with the "human beings are not illegal" argument

[MaryKB]

I feel there's a bit of confusion; it's not simply about entering here without permission. Most people who are living here illegally right now came here legally but overstayed their visas. Or some people are crossing legally but doing things they're not legally allowed to do, like work. My cousin's husband in Canada has a friend who kept crossing to stay with his girlfriend, and he was working illegitimately. He got caught and now he's not allowed to visit here any more.

I do feel it's incredibly degrading to call a person "an illegal," like he or she's some kind of object. I also feel it's really ignorant to think our problems would be solved by rounding up everyone who doesn't have legal residency status and sending them away, our economy would be really badly affected in so many dramatic ways. I feel it's mostly an anger issue, and I feel people very often want some group to scapegoat and blame for their problems, you can see this happening all the time throughout history.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Perhaps, rather than correcting what you think is a mistaken viewpoint from @El_Machinae, you have just inadvertently stumbled across the highly flawed perception of the whole commonly promoted legal perspective of the matter as a whole - thus, without realizing it, sabotaging the viewpoint you, the thread-starter, and several others having been pushing on this thread.

Given that I didn't start this thread, I have no idea how much of this, if any, is aimed at me.

Edit: My apologies, I misread. But anyway, I'm just sure what view you think I'm "pushing" in this thread, other than comparing two different things with two different outcomes and consequences and then saying that they operate "just like" each other is weird.

 

[stinkubus]

So anyone wants people to abide by the law is a fascist. Got it.

If this is your only concern, to the exclusion of all else, then yes you are a fascist. I have no doubt you would have made a wonderful Hitler Youth.

 

[caketastydelish]

I am related to people who fought against that regime. That is also flaming.

 

[Birdjaguar]

That doesn’t change the fact that many of the jobs were the types I was describing. There are still plenty Americans who will work for minimum wage. There isn’t a perfect solution but kicking all illegals out would be the most beneficial for the country.

I'd rather kick out 12 million stupid people.

Oh and BTW, Americans won't pick the fruits and veggies you eat. The work is too damn hard.

 

[Patine]

I am related to people who fought against that regime. That is also flaming.

Are you related to any military service person who helped prop up a human-rights abusing, bloody-handed, Third World despotism against their own people to protect that nation from a potential "Communist" or "Islamist" government of which the government being supported was at least as bad and tyrannical, in the many instances, during actual wars and outside of them, the U.S. has engaged in since the end of WW2 as well?

 

[caketastydelish]

I'd rather kick out 12 million stupid people.

Oh and BTW, Americans won't pick the fruits and veggies you eat. The work is too damn hard.

They will if you pay them enough.

 

[Peuri]

So am I correct in understanding that you believe the only thing currently stopping the Russians from carrying out a covert invasion and takeover of Estonia is Estonian immigration law?
[...]

I don't know, ask the Ukrainians, Georgians and Chechens. I'd rather not give Russia, or any other authoritarian country (I'm sure China would be very interested in upholding this new human right), a new tool to reinvent their imperialist aspirations. Independence is easily lost, but hard to get.

[...]
On the US southern border the practical difference is minimal to nonexistent. People are being stuck in Mexico, not allowed to leave, because of the US's current policies.
[...]

The difference is still substantial though, because what is being prevented is entry. Last I checked countries were allowed sovereignty to draw their own immigration policies.

I think one point largely missing from the liberal position on immigration is the establishment of an international order in which people are free from the kinds of problems that make them feel they have to risk their lives (or risk being put in a concentration camp) to get into Europe or the US. Again though, this will require calling the foundations of capitalism into question. A world where immigration really is a matter of choice rather than something people feel forced into would be a better world than we have now imo.

Yes. I'd love it if all of the world was basically all the west in terms of living standards, institutions and political systems, and all people were able to live where ever they like in universal siblinghood as individuals first experiencing only flowery odours and sensual excitement without a worry in the world about issues surrounding identity, oppression, ownership etc. etc. But that seems not to be our world. I used to believe that it would be our world eventually, but seems like that was just another summer night's dream of the 90's. I'm afraid putting into question the foundations of capitalism is not enough, you might as well put to question the nature of reality at this point.

 

[Estebonrober]

Yes. I'd love it if all of the world was basically all the west in terms of living standards, institutions and political systems, and all people were able to live where ever they like in universal siblinghood as individuals first experiencing only flowery odours and sensual excitement without a worry in the world about issues surrounding identity, oppression, ownership etc. etc. But that seems not to be our world. I used to believe that it would be our world eventually, but seems like that was just another summer night's dream of the 90's. I'm afraid putting into question the foundations of capitalism is not enough, you might as well put to question the nature of reality at this point.

We have to work towards this as a goal and not concede to the kleptocratic authoritarians that the world is a dog eat dog @#$%show.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

They will if you pay them enough.

or those jobs just go to whatever 3rd world country has the cheapest workers, and everyone loses. yay!

you know they send Shrimp from Europe's northern coast to Thailand in order to be cleaned, then ship it back? That's what happens when jobs become undesirable.

 

[Farm Boy]

or those jobs just go to whatever 3rd world country has the cheapest workers

That's accurate. When forced to consider domestic production that pays full time weeders, pickers, processors an honorable salary to the extent that they aren't stigmatized as bumblefudgs and could afford to save for a place to live, healthcare, and education, the answer is either to import the good or wait until the good can be produced with chemicals, automation, or high density high energy/capital input. The US farm program is 80 billion(over 10 years, about 10%) short of 2014 projections of where it would need to be. Just shy of 80% of the program is nutrition programs, the remaining 20% is everything to do with production/insurance. The only way to fix it is to fix the program. The people we import but refuse to grant honorable status to, they are underfunded. The long term costs of production and conservation are underfunded. At less than 2% of the population directly employed in agriculture, the industry is underfunded with people as well. 2,000 calories per day per person 365 no vacations no reasonable abeyance. Coffee prices high in America and going up. Coffee farms in Columbia suffering abysmal commodity pricing(and it's not like the dollar is so low as to explain it). It's infuriating.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't know, ask the Ukrainians, Georgians and Chechens.

I'm guessing immigration law would not be high on the list of things preventing Russian takeover.

The difference is still substantial though, because what is being prevented is entry. Last I checked countries were allowed sovereignty to draw their own immigration policies.

Well, the Declaration cannot actually grant freedom to leave one's country if every country in the world is able to deny entry to anyone for any reason.

Yes. I'd love it if all of the world was basically all the west in terms of living standards,

We have not achieved what I'm talking about in the West. I had to migrate internally in the US to find a job that let me support myself.

They will if you pay them enough.

Which will only mean no one will pay for those veggies; they'll be too expensive.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

That's accurate. When forced to consider domestic production that pays full time weeders, pickers, processors an honorable salary to the extent that they aren't stigmatized as bumble****s and could afford to save for a place to live, healthcare, and education, the answer is either to import the good or wait until the good can be produced with chemicals, automation, or high density high energy/capital input. The US farm program is 80 billion(over 10 years, about 10%) short of 2014 projections of where it would need to be. Just shy of 80% of the program is nutrition programs, the remaining 20% is everything to do with production/insurance. The only way to fix it is to fix the program. The people we import but refuse to grant honorable status to, they are underfunded. The long term costs of production and conservation are underfunded. At less than 2% of the population directly employed in agriculture, the industry is underfunded with people as well. 2,000 calories per day per person 365 no vacations no reasonable abeyance. Coffee prices high in America and going up. Coffee farms in Columbia suffering abysmal commodity pricing(and it's not like the dollar is so low as to explain it). It's infuriating.

as always, your views on agriculture are fascinating, and so are those stats.

 

[Hrothbern]

I think much comes down to what the consumer is prepared to pay (a trifle more), an adequate minimum wage, and solid inspections & fines (to employers) to enforce those minimum wages (to avoid the unfair competition race to the bottom).
That unfair race to the bottom driven by unregulated Selling Power of the retail supply chain.


I pay for red bell peppers in NL in a regular supermarket Euro 4.00 per kilo, and for the Bio-organic grown Euro 12.00 per kilo.
Spain imports bell peppers from cheap labor Morocco (main external supplier) at a wholesale price of Euro 1.00 per kilo, and imports from my high labor cost country NL (seasonally) at a wholesale price of Euro 2.00 from greenhouses.

Picking speed up to boxes incl set up times etc should be at least 40 kilo per hour (rough conservative guess).
At 10 cents extra wage per kilo, you get an extra wage cost of Euro 4.00 per hour.
BTW Spain minimum wage 2018 was Euro 35.00 per 8 hours, and per Jan 1 2019 Euro 50.00 per 8 hours.

That 10 cents per kilo (from a Euro 4.00 higher wage) has no real retail competitive effect on that Euro 4.00 per kilo I pay for bell peppers.

Am I missing something ?

 

[Farm Boy]

Labor as part of wholesale is a relatively small part of final retail pricing, but a making or breaking input on profitability of production and the budgeting of the program? I generally assume the picture is further complicated by government structures engaging in varying degrees of socializing the costs of production, regulatory, security, and transport infrastructure. Columbia is attempting to prop up its coffee farms as they're of high value to Columbia. But a pricing difference in commodity that makes the difference between whether or not they're hanging themselves? Totally subsumed by franchise planning rolling out the anticipated costs of American service minimum wages going up to $15 an hour on the coasts when it comes to retail pricing. Is that at all in vein or am I skewing into lala land?

 

[Patine]

I don't know, ask the Ukrainians, Georgians and Chechens. I'd rather not give Russia, or any other authoritarian country (I'm sure China would be very interested in upholding this new human right), a new tool to reinvent their imperialist aspirations. Independence is easily lost, but hard to get.

So, when should American Imperialist aspirations be curtailed, and all the authoritarian, bloody-handed, human-rights abusing regimes they like to install in other countries, and arm them to protect them from their own people and the threat of "Communist" or "Islamist" or what have you regimes that they are at least as bad as. And France does it too, though mostly in Africa - they're activity in this regard just doesn't get as much publicity as the U.S., for some reason. But France was aiding the genocide militias in Rwanda, and the regime of Habyarana, upon whose death the genocide started, and whose regime built up the genocide mentality in the country.

 

[Akka]

You deserve the ticket if you're caught, but that's a separate discussion.

Hu, no.
You deserve the ticket for speeding. You GET the ticket if you're caught. I have a hard time believing you'd not realize the difference between "deserving" and "getting".

The 'crime' of being an 'illegal' is crossing the border. It's a one-time event. It's not 'being in the country' that's illegal.

Err... Actually, YES it is ? That's why it's about "migrating" and not "crossing" ?

Seriously, I just again can't believe you'd be honestly so obviously wrong. Something tells me there is a strong "I just don't want to admit it" effect here.

 

[Lexicus]

Err... Actually, YES it is ? That's why it's about "migrating" and not "crossing" ?

Seriously, I just again can't believe you'd be honestly so obviously wrong. Something tells me there is a strong "I just don't want to admit it" effect here.

In the context of US law the crime is illegal entry, not illegal presence in the country. Of course, having absolutely no idea what you are talking has never stopped you from speaking this way.

 

[Akka]

You are generally smarter than this; why post something obviously false which can be shown to be false with less than a minute of research?

I specifically remember you already making this argument, and it already been destroyed in a flash by very obviously pointing that "free to leave a country" doesn't mean "free to enter any country you don't belong to".
You should refrain from telling others that they "are smarter than this and shouldn't post something obviously false" when you're the one not only posting something false, but something you KNOW to be false because you were already proved to be wrong about it.

In the context of US law the crime is illegal entry, not illegal presence in the country. Of course, having absolutely no idea what you are talking has never stopped you from speaking this way.

This woulds be comically ironic if you were actually able to realize comical irony.
But as the paragraph above shows, that's something you're sadly immune to.

 

[MaryKB]

In the context of US law the crime is illegal entry, not illegal presence in the country. Of course, having absolutely no idea what you are talking has never stopped you from speaking this way.

I'm not sure if you're right on this. If you enter legally, but you stay longer than you're supposed to, you're now doing something wrong. You can get a "permanent resident" status, or a work visa, which lets you live and/or work here, and it's not just about crossing.