The Reign in Spain: Inquisition, Exploration, and Enlightenment

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Just a note Charlie has 7 cities, only 6 are visible. The 7th is the city of Ulm, and must be located below his visible Maceman, to have that Cultural push on the Portuguese.

Further scouting would be required, and taking the City of Ulm 1st, would give us a great starting point, and ready access to take out his Iron with a couple of Suicide horse archers.

Good invasion plan, but scout out that last city, and revise it to include that city.

I disagree on Charlie attacking Toledo, I think he'd go for Cordoba. Its closer to his lands, coastal, so not as much Cultural Pressure, can be reached in 2 turns and would end up with a minimal garrison. He has roads connecting it to his lands, and is at on extreme of our empire.

I'd even go as far as to consider a 2 pronged attack, 1st along the line suggested, with Ulm added into the mix/calculations, and the 2nd attacking from the North into Mainz and then moving on to the capital in Vienna, his 2nd settled city. Charlie is rapidly industrialising the area around the city with Mines and farms going up, finishing up with Augsburg.

The other factor we need to consider is the stack Van Orange has sitting in his northern city of Maastricht of which he can declare war at Pleased (20%) but only bribed at Cautious?

Even so, moving all our troops away, could give him a green light to attack as he's please with Charlie as well, and may take our attack as a reason to dog pile us..

 

[Cam_H]

(Again - I'm away from my Civ computer and going on memory)...

Towns vs. Plantations for Trades

The commerce yielded from the Towns on Spice/Silk will be multiplied by that city (initially Library, Monasteries, Market, later Cathedrals, Universities, etc.) noting in particular the impact on that city when the commerce slider is maximised towards cultural contribution into that city. Barcelona's earmarked for Legendary, and Uzbek was one that was proposed as a possibility. If the Plantation resource was in 'say' Seville, then using the tile for an empire-wide benefit rather than a city-focussed benefit through a Town could be more compelling.

Cottaging > Town I believe, until I'm proven horribly wrong, is no worse if not its benefits far outweigh a generic gold per turn financial contribution to our coffers, and/or an imported resource that's probably not required (if we can even get a decent resource trade going) given we're expansive health and in Hereditary Rule )). We may possibly get a +1 diplomatic modifier for 'appreciating the years you have provided us with resources', but simultaneously make our trading partners stronger through adding to their happiness. Our ability to set up a colony (and possibly also expand our Spanish empire independent of the colony) on the other continent should open up a host of new resources to Spain.

Ulm

This was mentioned in my report (that the city was by-passed in our initial scouting) but its spot is quite clear to deduce from the Great Wall outline.

I agree that pillaging that Iron with a Horseback unit should be a priority. I'm not sure if a two pronged approach will work or not depending on the number of units available, but certainly a mixed stack pillaging party (something like minimum 2x Pike, 2x Crossbow, 1x Chariot) for taking out that Iron would be good. Maybe send in a Spy or two instead / also to do the job? Good thoughts generally on the plan.

Cordoba

(I'm getting repetitive) Cordoba needs Christianity to leverage Theocracy, and therefore given that it has not spread naturally over several turnsets, I'd prioritise a Christian Missionary from a productive city such as Seville. Madrid will do, but Madrid should probably push on with Trebuchets / Catapults courtesy of its Citadel. As suggested, Cordoba could build a Citadel while it waits for Christianity and work the remaining Grassland Farm to get its population up. Also it can part-build and queue a few different units while waiting for Christianity and then finish them off once it can utilise Theocracy.

Willem van Oranje

Yep - I've noted that big stack too. Maybe we'll have to risk demanding a gold per turn deal out of him before we attack Charlemagne (?).

Whipping Barcelona

Sorry - can't look at the save right now, so really can't comment on the proposal other than whipping it sounds very counterproductive. We should be growing those Cottages relentlessly. Forge also adds which is a minor issue for this city. We will need a University, Observatory and a Grocer in time, and as discussed, the Palace, so I'm not dead-against getting a Forge up, but wipping citizens off Cottages is a 'no no' imho, but whipping unhappy citizens ... by all means.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

The other factor is Louis, who won't go unless he's cautious, its an error in the BTS Civ 4 Reference guide I think he's either mixed up Louis and Mansa Musa for going at Pleased, but Louis won't declare at Pleased. He's say's won't betray his friends who are all pleased/friendly.

Scrap the 1st paragraph, I got confused on our random personalities, apart from URL link.

But...He can be bribed at pleased, so would attack our new possessions.

We could ask Joao to stop trading with Louis, should he declare war, for the cost of paper, but hold off until that happens, same for Van Orange, who's able to go at pleased, but has them all redded out.

Looking at the various inter leader relations, I've come to these conclusions;

War mongers have a respect ration of +2 (BTS Civ 4 Ref Guide)
Elizabeth is Pleased at Zero relations, and above with some, but annoyed at -2 with others. She's a War monger. So are;

Joao = Napoleon
Willem = Cyrus
Saladin = Unknown, Pragmatic, no great religious bent, Qin? or Napoleon as well
Lincoln = Too Early to tell

Completely forgot about spies...Duh!!!

 

[TCMIV]

Doesn't Joao have theocracy as a favorite civic? Pretty sure Napolean's is rep.

Maybe I'm misreading but you're also saying Louis won't declare at pleased, but he's not really Louis in this game so that makes no difference, right?

As for the barracks in a commerce city, I thought we were prepping a war. In medieval times, that usually means full on war production, especially against a protective leader with what seems to be a ton of walls and Chichen Itza. Even spreading Christianity to Cordoba seemed unnecessary to me, unit promos on the crossbows ultimately wont matter after trebs have been suicided.

I guess we're going more of a balanced war prep/continue building culture strategy, which I can't say I'd agree with, but if that's what everyone else settles on that's fine.

Getting Charly's land earlier = easier game later, the longer we let the war continue the worse we'll fall behind techwise.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Joao, doesn't match up to any favourite civ's leaders, who have Theocracy, so is that randomly assigned to the personality, ??? I was going of who they'll attack, relations between them all and warmonger respect. civics I think are random as well, I may be wrong. Warmongers seems to be consistent.

My 1st 2 lines, I wrote in error, your right Louis isn't Louis, but still won't go at Pleased, all "we couldn't betray our close friends in red, but Elizabeth is Cautious in white.

On Trade V's Cottages, Trade gives income empire wide to run a higher slider in all cities. Towns only benefit the one town, which needs the various improvement to multiply, and then run at a x % Science slider.

Trade giving a higher income, allows more flexibility in science slider, Multiples are then applied, EMPIRE WIDE. So a trade of 7 gold /turn to Joao, (which we can do) is applied empire wide, not only in 1 city. Same for and extra 4 gold /turn for Marble to Willem that's 11 gold empire wide, not 6 in ONE CITY.

I feel a mistake has been made cottageing these resources so early, if at all. I a strong Advocate for Selling them for excess cash the AI's have, and applying this across ALL cities via a higher science slider. Sell the resource for more cash then a town would generate, along a river in Free speech, TODAY!!! Then factor in the Supply bonus etc.

Uzbek, should build a work boat for the fish, Charlie can't pillage it, its all Portuguese along that coast.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

@ Norvin Green, I'm happy with the PPP PLAN Sorry if I've lead the tread off the real topic, you game plan for your set.

Maybe even send in the spies now to pillage the Iron repeatedly, and when we declare, we could grab with a couple of horse archers/knights.

I still say, find Ulm's location on the map, no guessing, and plan accordingly.
2nd attack from the north with reinforcement troops, shortens the war, splits Charlies attention, and just looks so damm good.

 

[Cam_H]

I don't mind if we trade our existing Spice to Joao for 7/turn, as we have enough Hereditary Rule happiness to get us through without problems. Another way might be to cancel the Silk-for-Sugar deal with Charlemagne and trade Silk to Joao for that cash instead.

Hopefully soon we'll have Dye, Ivory, Corn, and our own Clams anyway!

 

[Norvin_Green]

Sorry for the delay. I won't be able to get to the game until tomorrow, if that's ok.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Yeah, that's fine, gives me more time to spam the forum, as I've now have permission from the leader, who asked us to speak or forever hold our peace, I spoke,and can't stop now.

Crossbows, Trebuchets, and Accuracy Trebs, all sound like a great war plan, I'd only want Ulm mapped out and figured into the equation.

I like that 2nd stack idea, well it was mine, no wonder I like it. Nah seriously, once Charles is down to Garrison Longbows, as we've pillaged iron, a 2nd stack would shorten the war and could meet in Centre.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Pre-turn:

Insert a market in front of the queue in Uzbek and MM some tiles (work quarry in Toledo per Cam_H) etc. Begin the 40 turn build of the palace in Barcelona. Drop science to 0% to gather up some cash.

Turn 235

An inauspicious start. Our Xbow loses at 89.4% odds while trying to take out the barb city. Send an xbow out east to enable promoted axe to join our army. Same in Cordoba. Cancel marble for 4 gpt to Willem and renegotiate for 6 gpt.



Turn 236

Madrid goes treb>treb. Push science back to 100% and into Printing Press.

Turn 237

Salamanca completes an x bow and starts a monastery.

Turn 239

Charlemagne is rebuffed on the following deal.



Madrid treb>treb.

Turn 240

Willem demands Paper and in a move I hope doesn’t bite us in the arse I decline. He immediately drops to cautious. Gulp. Joao also is the first to Divine Right.



Turn 241

Santiago sends its completed missionary to Cordoba and starts another.

Turn 242

Another treb from Madrid.

Turn 243

Salamanca starts a spy to assist in our future war effort. Cordoba receives its long overdue Catholic conversion.

Turn 244

Madrid switches to building catapults. Our power is starting to grow. Seville finishes a stable and begins producing HA’s.

Turn 245

1 cat down 3 or 4 to go. Our caravel with spy aboard sights land on its journey. Markets get whipped in Uzbek and Toledo.

Turn 246

I turn Willem away on this trade. I am the worst trader. Hopefully it won’t bite us in the butt. Our spy unloads from the caravel to begin exploring the “New World”. Salamanca is starting to lose the culture battle to Willem so after the missionary I go wall and eventually citadel. Willem has picked up Astronomy.



A glimpse of the “New World”

Spoiler :

I need to stop here as I’m just out of gas. Please ignore the reminder that will pop up in 3-4 turns. Sorry for the brief reporting. I realize my reports are usually short and to the point but I knew I didn't have as much time as I'd like and didn't want to hold the game up any longer. There are a missionary or two en route to Louis' territory.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Some thoughts from playing yesterday. Charlemagne is very light on defense. Willem is teching pretty well and my refusal to gift him Paper has him at cautious. His SOD is still sitting in that one city. Perhaps we can bribe him against Liz or Sal (though I doubt it) Maybe we can pick up a cheap tech and gift it to him. Sal has made a decent comeback as far as the # of cities he has. Hopefully Joao won't convert to Islam as we still need a D-pact with him. I sent some missionaries to France so that hopefully we can convert him. He has a decent army (strength-wise) so perhaps we could bribe him against Willem?

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Thanks for the set Norvin Green. If your not well, great job to post what you could.

Being totally Machiavellian, if Joao, did convert to Islam, we could war on him or get a proxy to do so, take the Islamic Holy city, and reconvert him to Christianity, coming in as a War Ally and beating back the Aggressor, But keeping the holy city ourselves for Denial purposes.

Looks like its going to be bit of a race to the New world, our proposed war will slow down the Teching, and generating settlers to found a Colony may be problematic.

Don't sweat the writing style, we all have differing types, and time constraints/Motivation for doing so, I have an idea if the timing works out correctly, but may not be realistic for the game setting???

A just the facts with honest game play is a great set.

Looking at save...

Salamanca should farm the cottage on the grass, and cottage the riverside Farm as the city is riverside as well.

Uzbek A Christian Temple after the Harbour, and then build wealth, or a forge for 25% more wealth from hammers (Bah, only 1 hammer, not worth it)< build wealth, or a Christian Temple next.

Toledo, whip the walls into a Citadel. Build Troops out of there as well, settle 1 Great General? or West Point there.?? Grow more to work more mines/ Quarry. Confucian Monastery as well to spread 2ndry Religions. Forge to help builds??

Cordoba, next turn whip the Citadel into the next build. Needs a Court house next. Christian Monastery, or do we use Organised religion for spread.

Seville, build Science after current build?? what are we aiming for in tech's??? trading opportunities. Needs a Confucian Monastery, to spread 2nd religions after Christianity. Just pump troops from here as well.

Barcelona, build wealth AFTER completion of the Palace there. Not another Crossbow, leave that to Hammer cities.

Madrid, keep pumping out the Units, settle great Generals there.

We could use a Few Confucian Missionaries as per our variant, to spread the 2ndry religions into cities with Christianity, and help with Culture wars.

Bad luck with the Crossbow, but way it goes. Even worse luck with Willem trying his luck in demanding a tech. Our power increase, should keep him at bay, if not, More Great General points for us.

Joao, had 7 gold/turn, we need to Hoover up, and 2 each form Lincoln, Willem and Charles.

Strange to See a newly liberated Vassal, being held in contempt by his Master, differing Personalities. (Louis and Lincoln.)

Charles, is Nearly Universally loathed, except for Louis, so both are non warmongers. Charles has further decided that Saladin is his worst enemy (make up your mind Charles, or lose your head) Both Louis and Charles are +6 Faith Brothers, so both Religious fanatics, to a degree.

Louis, is Either Justinian (at +6 Shared Religion and +4 Favourite civic, or Zara at +7 Shared Religion and +4 Favourite Civic), Espionage levels would make him Justinian definitely.

Charles, after much consultations, would have to be Kublai Khan, with Bureaucracy as favourite civic, and with a +/- 3 Modifier Moderate Espionage levels, clinches it.

Joao, on Favourite Civic and the +/-2 could only be Zara Yaqob

Willem MUST be Alexander, as He say's "we don't like you enough" to attack people he's pleased with, and the other 2 of Vassalage, won't go at pleased. Meaning, if he liked us more, he'd consider it.

Lincoln, an early call, he's either Gilgamesh or Louis definitely, with +2 War Monger respect and being one, but I'd have to go with Gilgamesh, Mainly on the +4 Shared Civic, which is more likely.

Elizabeth is Definitely a war monger, but need favourite civic, to make any further determinations. She'll go at Pleased, and of the Favourite civics we're YET to see and relations, with other civ's, of what's left she's MONTY.

As he's the only one to go at Pleased, with a -2 Differing religion, factoring in the random element. NO one else, matches all the requirements of Unseen Favourite Civic, Warmonger respect of 2, Different religion of -2, with the variables factored in, and willing to declare war at Pleased.

Saladin, is another War monger respect of 2, from Elizabeth, unseen favourite civic, -2 Heathen religion, and will attack at Pleased, won't declare on X at Annoyed and close border tensions. Candidates are; Montezuma (Police state), Peter (Bureaucracy), Qin Shi Huang (Bureaucracy), Shaka (police state). All others are ruled out due to Religious differences being our of range, not going at Pleased, or having seen the Favourite Civic so far.

As we are Furious with Saladin, I have no other way (map trading, no happy resource, and we have the one strategic resource) of further winnowing it down. Saladin obtaining Civil Service can rule in or out 2 of them, so that's a 50/50 tech.

At a guess of Close borders of -2; with Shaka, Qin Shi Huang and Montezuma at -4 and can only get worse, leaving Peter at -3 with +2/-2 modifier being the only remaining Candidate.

Red Herring is we don't know how long border is, or how many tiles it is as we haven't found Saladins lands. So this is all speculation, leaning towards Peter.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Thanks for the set Norvin Green. If your not well, great job to post what you could.

, thanks for the comment/concern IPEX but I'm well (ok, as well as a crazy person can be). I just couldn't stay awake!! I knew last night was my only time to play until the weekend and didn't want to hold the game up any longer. As it was I started playing far later than I had wanted.

 

[nocho]

Am I up by any chance?

I guess it's still mainly about building up further militarily and do some scouting of the new world. I forgot, are huts on?

And is there any good reason why we never settled of the coast north of Madrid? I noticed with some MM Madrid can build a 1-turn settler, I'd be inclined to settle immediately 1W of the sheep. That city would have two already connected food resources all to itself (how on earth did that fish get hooked up ) and has enough hills around to make it a decent productive town. Yeah, I know we are going to expand anyway by force, just that imo it's a too good spot to pass up. Besides it could help with our naval capabilities which are rather limited to say the least.

 

[happyturtle]

It's a while until my turnset, but I'm about to go on holiday for a couple of weeks and will probably be rather exhausted when I get back. So I probably will need to skip my next turn.

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks Norvin_Green for the turnset. I've crossed the Civ sleep-depravation issue more than once myself before!

Roster

• Norvin_Green
• TCMIV
• nocho <<< Up
• IPEX-731BA5DD06 <<< On Deck
• happyturtle <<< Skip
• Sengir
• Cam_H

happyturtle ... Holidays? I'm envious. I've got holidays planned in mid-November, and they can't come soon enough. I hope you have a great break, and let us know when you're back and ready to play!

nocho ... 'yes' you're up. Huts are on, and yes ... more military. I agree with your suggestion on that northern city above Madrid (the Plains site between the Fish and the Sheep) although I'm not sure if it's exactly a priority. I believe that our access to those Fish are being blocked because of the Barbarian city. Also, we've still not got a Maoi Statues city up, which was suggested could have been either Cordoba or alternately the most north west point where there's Fish and a couple of Hills (from recollection ... {I'm at work }). I think that we were really focussing on our military, and could wait a while to settle some of these marginal cities. We've lost our access to Stone, so Maoi's looking even 'less urgent'.

I can't comment on IPEX's numerous suggestions for now, although wherever he says "pump units" I'm inclined to agree, although I thought that Toledo was going to be a commerce-heavy hybrid, not a unit spammer given that we have so few commerce-rich sites. The idea of Willem actually being Alexander is a concern!

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

All those idea's of mine were made from looking at the CIV 4 BTS REFERENCE GUIDE

I may have made an error or 2, but mostly, they match the favourite civics, declaration of war at Pleased, religious disposition, and the Modifiers, with Espionage used in one or 2 to clinch the decision.

My decision on Alexander and Montezuma, as no wars so far, seems strange. But Willem with that Stack of doom to our south, seems true, and Elizabeth, I eliminated 3 others on modifiers to leave only Montezuma.

My list of Eliminations was;

Lincoln- Ragnar, Gilgamesh, Louis, Sulieman. Elimination left Gilgamesh.
Elizabeth- Tokugawa, Shaka, Mao, Monty and Hannibal. Elimination left Monty
Saladin- Shaka, Genghis Khan, Qin Shi Huang, Monty, Peter. Elimination left Peter.
Charles- Peter, Kublai Khan. Eliminated Peter due to Espionage. (though I had him 1st)
Willem- Cyrus or Alexander. Going at Pleased left Alexander.
Louis and Joao-Both had either Zara, Justinian, Isabella (US!!!) and Saladin. Elimination broke it down to between Zara and Justinian for both, Espionage, split it up.

Main initial determination was warmonger, Religious Fanatic and of course FAVOURITE CIVICS.

Fish was used for the Health,and trade possibilities.

On settling the Fish, Sheep, yes, we could, that'd leave all those forests for the national parks city, only having the Horse as is resource, but 16 forested tiles, the city Square, and 3 more tundra tiles awaiting forest spread to them. An excellent late game city, but lacking food to grow to use all those free specialists. We'd have to chain farm there and use another 3 tiles for farms, so growth could occur.

Trouble is trying to work the Tundra Iron, 1 off the coast would get both Deer and Tundra Iron. But trying to squeeze in 3 marginal cities, when 1 good city might be best.

Uzbek, has that built a work boat for the Fish in its 3rd ring?? only Joao can Pillage that tile, and we're keeping him Friendly aren't we. It would give us 1 to trade away.

That Barbarian city in the Extreme NW of the map, takes in; Deer, Iron and fish. A nice little earner. We could Gobble up Newcastle and Canterbury as well, to make that our Western Capital (Forbidden Palace in Santiago)

Joao, will stop trading with Charles for the Cost of Paper, it may be worth 10 turns, to do so, if the deals still available when we declare. He's got them all in white at pleased, and is a 10% chance to do so. Or once we have declared war, and taken a city, we could invite Joao, or then bribe him to attack as well, taking some heat for us?? but if Charles is broken, why??

On the refused deals with Willem (Alexander Personality), maybe we lucked out in not getting an Immediate war Declaration 80%, there are 3 checks?? if I remember correctly from other peoples posting on this.

Maybe scout our his lands to see where his stack of doom is, if that's it facing us, no War Elephants, though he actually has them.

If we're gearing up for War, why haven't we gone for Guilds, do we hope to trade for it, its 7 Turns at Current rate.

The Silk, 2 N, 1 W of Uzbek, should have a Plantation upon it, for trade and +3 gold.
The next silk North, again is Equal to a Village, and will take 55 Turns of work to turn into a town, where as a Plantation is equal to it immediately, and can be traded.

 

[nocho]

Nothing very spectacular to report, mainly a question of building up some more forces and exploring the new world a bit.

1030 Couldn't resist the temptation to settle near 2 unused food resources:


1040 Louis wants compass for 60 bucks and is sent packing. His city of Orleans happily receives Christianity though.

1060 In Rheims however our missionary is slaughtered by the zealous buddhist crowd.

1070 Barcelona is the new vibrant capital of the glorious Spanish empire.


1080 We discover the printing press. We could start printing books to learn from them (edu), but nah, the suggested guilds first sounds good if we are warring soon. And of course the only real point in the discovery of printing press was reprinting the bible for the masses to keep them ignorant pious.

I'm told we failed the horse whispering quest. Anybody sad about that?

I start to get slightly nervous somehow about the circumnavigation bonus. Been checking the cost of WvO's map and it was steadily increasing turn by turn so thought he might be approaching the new world from the other side. Decide to buy WM for 75 gold. It reveals interesting things (Liz's and Sal's land, some islands with English and French folks), but no sign of him moving towards the new world. Also buy Joao's map just in case for 20 gold.

1110 Our explorer finds a hut and pops 76 gold. Not as good as popping astro but okay for now. One of the caravels trying to get through northern ice to the west perishes against barb attacks. The other caravel is also slightly wounded and tries to get west in the southern hemisphere.

Make this deal with our tiny religious brother. He's the only one without compass.


1120 Joao comes offering Divine Right for Printing Press but we more or less courtly decline.

1150 Guilds is in, select education as place holder and call it a day. We have a decent military force and I'm sure IPEX will be eager to show some BALLS and shove some treb-action in somebody's face. Somehow I personally still prefer to let Spanish rule be felt in the Low Countries (not uncharacteristically ) as I think at least 2 of Charlemagne's cities have to be razed or they'll fall to Portuguese culture, WvO's land is more contiguous, he's slightly weaker and is more of a long term threat. But if all want to go for a whopper at the burger king, that's okay as well.

Tech situation:


Balance sheet. We need to get rid of some units!


Idea of the new world, which stretches from nearly north pole to south pole. Only 1 caravel in the field, try to stay out of coast to avoid annoying barb galleys. Still would like circumnavigation, keep an eye on maps for sale (only WvO and Joao were willing).

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Had a quick look at the save, few notes;

KILL THE DUTCH. ( Inset Austin Powers Quote, from 2nd film) Ook Ook shlem.

Trade opportunities, I advocate, bulldozing that river side town on the spice, and putting up a Plantation for trade to Joao, for 8 gold.

More plantations for trade opportunities for 6 and 7 gold to Elizabeth and Saladin for the silk.

As much as I agree with Killing Willem, they are all at pleased with him, and we'll only get a -1 "you declared war on our friend" Penalty, Charles they are mostly at Cautious with, no penalty or only -1 from Louis.

Ulm, yes burn that city, it pains me to destroy a size 12 city, but to give it away, pains me even more, due to Joao's culture. That's the only city under threat I feel, the others are pushed by marginal size 4 in Braga, and in 4th ring of Lagos. Use of a Missionary and spies to spread culture before hand would save that city. Ulm is lost, I agree.

War Plan, Ulm 1st, burn that city, Prague on 2 diagonals attack keep, Aachen 2 diagonals and attack keep, remove iron and ivory with spies before attacking.

Nuremburg on 2 Diagonals, keep, end of my set...ha ha....

Notes:

Willem has a stack moving to take Vandal in our NW corner.
Charles and Elizabeth have a mutual LOATHING of each other, but too far away to war.
I may have been in error in some of my earlier idea's about civ's, I'll have to look again at it.
Attacking Charles, may effectively mean attacking the Sun King in Louis.
Charles won't attack anyone, though in white, Joao, want all our techs to attack, as does Louis.

Set Plan:

Vacuum up the excess gold.

Plantations over towns. ARE YOU ALL OK WITH THIS IDEA?? TRADE GIVES MORE RETURN EMPIRE WIDE. Not to a single towns science rate.

Make more spies for destruction of Iron and Ivory and horses of Willem's.

YES, I agree, attack the Dutch, enable the "SPANISH NETHERLANDS" So we take a -1 hit from all, unless we can figure out a way to be attacked, its best, easier fit, less pressure, and Charles can be next, and we'll get Joao, in a military pact.

Get Circumnavigation bonus, look to trade for Astronomy, start research on that tech, use printing press for trade.

Have some fun.

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks nocho for the turnset and the report.

Before IPEX plays his turnset, I want to express again, maybe the fifth or sixth time now, that I oppose knocking over existing Villages and Towns for Plantations for cities earmarked for Legendary status. This discussion is in a deadlock, and it needs other roster members to make a determination one way or the other.

I think that I've already spelled out the rationale for keeping the Towns, however at the end of the day the extra commerce is getting multiplied into Culture or Science or Gold through city improvements in Barcelona and Uzbek. A gold-per-turn will do significantly less to help these cities go Legendary, than a Town supported with multiple Cathedrals.

I still don't know if Uzbec on the other hand is tagged for going Legendary or not. If not, I am less rigid about developing a Town there, although i do like the existing set-up. I'd keep Barcelona as is.

If this trade is so desirable, I can't see a reason why we can't trade our existing Spices to Joao for 8/turn and be done with it given all of our cities have excess happiness.