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The Rise and Fall of the Sea People (IMMaw)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by BornInCantaloup, Jan 22, 2020.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I settled the first two, and got around with a medic promoted impi (or chariot).
    Super medic with the third GGeneral.

    I don't think attaching GGeneral on units make any sense in this type of game.
     
  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @BornInCantaloup , @Gumbolt & @Tobiyogi

    In an agressive approach w/o GLH:
    How do you handle early game micro with first warrior and then with HAs?
    What fights to you take, what fights do you avoid?
    All HAs combat->shock, or some combat->combat2?

    When do you transition from harassment to killing? Cities with spears are nasty, do you strike before that happends?
     
  3. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    First warrior : kill all the scouts, fight a lion or 2, steal workers. (I made quite a detailed post about that, beginning of the thread.)

    HAs : don't promote to shock, no. Spears you don't fight in the field, you let them attack and defend with archers.
    HAs mainly promote to combat and kill archers in the field. Having a sentry guy is very useful.
    Later on, when you start seeing metal, you can promote some HAs to shock (like 1 in 5) to take out axemen and, then, swordsmen.
    In the end, most HAs become promoted to shock, yes, because they don't come to you with archers anymore.

    You can control your whole surroundings with 6-10 HAs. (Even 4 do a great job.)
    You can capture a city with 6-8. You can kill an AI with 15. (So, you transition when you've grown your numbers ; you shouldn't lose units when harassing - conservation of units is the number 1 goal.)
    Don't attack a city simply because it's there and you want to capture it. Attack a city because you know it will be weakly defended and you can afford a couple of losses and you know you can push further. So you don't push in the dark. Harassment provides scouting.

    If a city is well defended. Don't target it. Either retreat or target another city. Wait for the units to move out and then attack.
    If you go on the capture, make sure you have workers to road (supply route) and at least an archer on the way, preferably two. The archers don't need to join your stack of HA but they need to be in the city 1-2 turns after the capture.
    ^ You don't necessarily need a "stack". You can have a "cloud" of HAs and focus them on a city when the time is right.

    I used 2 Combat chariots to bridge the gap between those phases. They have about 70% odds against archers on flatland, then get further promoted if the first fight goes right.
     
  4. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    On worker steals, there are 2 things to avoid :
    - land next to a worker and have 0 movement : worker flees ;
    - threaten a city and have the worker remains inside.

    So you take a distance and approach one (forested) tile at a time.
    Pillaging roads makes it a whole lot easier to keep stealing. Pillaging resources (corn NE of Barcelona) gives them a tile to improve and you know they'll go there.
     
  5. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Chariots are more than able to pillage. Just don't get too close to cities so archers attack them.
     
    Tobiyogi likes this.
  6. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    On GGs: I agree that Supermedic isn't a good idea for two reasons. First of all, you don't have ONE army because there are several fronts and secondly, with so many fights it is easy to get to Medic II or even promoto Medic I chariot out of the gate (when you settle a GG or build a stable). So having 2 medic II guys is probably better and saves the GG for settling. In my game, I tried to attach a GG to 4 HAs to make them survive better the city attack but it didn't work out. Higher numbers are certainly better than 4 super-promoted guys.
     
  7. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    On worker steals: playing on EMP is a bit more relaxed because AI doesn't have workers yet and I have more time... So i built my ikandha (in between the first worker and fishing boat) and only then 2 warriors. These guys just need to win a single offensive fight and they have woody II. I took more than 20 workers from Isabella, also 3 settlers. Irony of the whole thing: eventually she had enough of my harrassment and attacked my woody with an archer and she won the FIRST fight!! How stupid can you be? :crazyeye::D
     
  8. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Without GLH is out of my imagination on that map... We are the Sea People, right? :king:
    Otoh, it's true that building that thing consumes enormous resources and 200H equal 4 Horse Archers. It's tough to decide, I think one should commit to one strategy: short-term war success or long-term economic benefits.

    I didn't take the chances to attack cities just with HAs. Well, I tried it once and failed and then I waited for Construction. Maybe a mistake. I didn't get rid of any AI, only weakened three of them. It's better to destroy someone early on. In this game it would be Justinian, just because Isabellas land has the whole war front to the east. I think Justinian is the one who has to be taken out of the game first.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
  9. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    True, Gunpowder is not really needed. I must have thought we would be the Ottomans because this is the other AW game here on the forum. I am not convinced of prioritizing Guilds either, even though it leads to Banking. Would rather make use of Shakas AGG trait (he is the only AGG guy on the map and that must count for something). I believe that stacks with Trebs/Maces/Pikes would be enough to bring cities down. Knights cannot attack on their own and there are Elephants jumping around. Only threat are the CKN from Mao which I have seen already.

    Btw, at the same turn, I arrived to Guilds (in my current savegame), Rosy showed up with first knights. I didn't have a slow tech pace either. Shocking! He has all the wonders....
     
  10. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Yes, Maces/Trebs might be good enough/better than Knights. Depends what's on the map at this point. Already having Maces is a good argument for Trebs, if you can support the costs. Perhaps it's possible with the GLH.
    On Banking, let's just say that it is better than Education, if you're looking for an eco tech around this age.

    You seem to have made some very good progress in your attempt, despite playing really fast (didn't you start yesterday ? ^^). Props !

    In my own game, I suppose I'll go Feud, Machinery, Guilds, if they let me.
     
  11. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    My current savegame is unfortunately not strong enough, I am still too much in the defense (as usual). In my own land, i can take out even big stacks but as soon as i push out, I am getting creamed as well :undecide:
    You cannot win these games in defense.... I could not hold a single foreign city.

    What will Banking give me? I am not in Rep, so best thing would be an engineer in every city! (if there is a forge). Is that really so useful? Of course, mercantilsim is better than nothing and banks can be built (but they are not really cheap) :shifty:
    Don't you think that THE eco tech of that area would be PP? There are quite a few riverside cottages in center of Zululand ;). needs Paper, this is the downside to that...
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
  12. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Another question would be, what religious civic is best here? I got the Hindu spread, but some folks probably managed to capture a city or two and to get also their religion. Is Theocracy overkill when we have already settled GGs? OR or Pacifism? Maybe switching back and forth at the start/end of a Golden Age? I was stupid to avoid Mono here, I think it would have been a good civic in my situation.
     
  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I think the best religious civic here is paganism.
    From all my tries, I have found that I'm comming up short in both production and in tech, so spreading religion and teching some religious tech doesn't seem feasable at all.
    If I would capture paya, then theocracy most likely, more XP never hurts.
     
  14. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Organized Religion and Theocracy are both good. Pacifism, I have a hard time seeing happening. In Tobiyogi's situation, it's probably worth it to spread the religion slowly, if only for the happiness.
    I don't think the extra xp is ever overkill.

    Not sure, need screenshot. Depends how you're set up. You're right about Representation, though.
    PP costs 3 times more than Banking, not really the same horse. You need Education if you want to bulb it. It doesn't have any more benefits (Rifling is a long way ahead and requires Banking, too). The bonus is free but negligeable if you don't have a whole lot of LAND. Further, that land needs to be cottaged.
     
  15. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Yes, religion wise, I got a bit lucky here. Even more as AP was built in my religion :lol:
    But wether lucky spread or captured cities, if religion comes into play I would spread it around. In a captured city, there is usually a bit of population that you can whip away for a monastery (meditation is a cheap tech). Then you train missionaries (40:hammers:) who provide +1 happiness. The alternative is to build archers (25:hammers:) for +1 happiness to sit in your cities with HR. Even if you can still build warriors, you have to pay for them. So missionary is worth the investment. Not to mention that you can benefit from more civics. Maybe some border cities won't need the hapiness because you stack units there, but even those units can become mobile when the landscape changes and AI targets other cities.

    Civic-wise, well, my beloved Pacifism is probably not a wise decision here. It works best with Caste and how long can you really afford to be without slavery once all the forests are chopped?

    National Epic would be good substitute, marble is on that map, I have seen it quite late due to lousy scouting.
     
  16. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    ^ Agreed.
    Getting the happiness from a missionary is likely better than an extra HR garrison.
    Given Incan AP (incredible !), spamming Monasteries is well worth it... Hence Organized Religion (Forges, Monasteries, Lighthouses, Libraries, etc. : it pays off fast.)
    You could possibly consider building the University of Sankore, depending how your game goes.

    I agree that the National Epic (and the Heroic in Ulundi ; possibly the Moai Statues, too, once you get stone) is an important wonder for the long game.
    Having a GP farm will help triggering those golden ages that transform a strike situation into an easy recovery... Or simply help tech up to the next age.

    But before that, you need to move out, indeed. If you couldn't, it's either because you waited too long inside your borders,
    Either because you spent too much on cute things (like GLH, religious spread, etc.).
    The question of balance is very hard, here, and I think you need to go broke, first. There's a balance in going broke, too (preparing a GP is important !), but you're definitely going broke at some point, if you're going to do this right. If you look at the other spoilers, this is how we made progress.

    My issue with Pacifism is the upkeep, not Caste. You shouldn't be able to afford the cost.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  17. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Unfortunately, there is only me and the Inca in Hindu, so votes won't happen. Is it possible on AW that a holy war breaks out while everyone is already fighting you? So that above all, people declare on each other?

    There never seemed to be the right moment to move out. While I was building HAs, people sent huge archer stacks (that don't attack but walk through your territory). So I kept my horses at home to kill those guys. And when I eventually reached cats, the stacks became melee and I promoted a few guys double barrage to take out those.

    Btw, these kind of game beautifully illustrate how ridicilous the AI production bonus is even on EMP. Even some Isabella who i was choking like never seen before managed to build 20-30 archers in no-time, also tons of workers, settlers. To be fair, she has huge corn resources, but didn't land a single chop afaik. :crazyeye:
     
  18. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    I think the moment for pacifism is when several coastal cities have grown big and are already in the religion. Then you wait for Golden Age and go for 8T into Caste/Pac while you starve those cities down. GA should make up for the high military maintenance.
    Not sure yet what kind of GP would be best, but you can defintely get 2 or 3 guys. Maybe just use 2 of them for another GA?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  19. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Going broke means not even being able to run 10% research? Where units are on the verge of striking?

    I was not at the same point, in AW i usually could run 30% research if I wanted, does this mean I have not built enough units?

    And how to recover from that? In Lain's playthroughs, it is tech stealing and FIN trait to save him from that. What else is possible? I am afraid that capture gold helps only for 2,3 turns and then you're broke again...
     
  20. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Well, "going broke" was a manner of speaking. I didn't mean you should suffer a STRIKE, where you start losing units.
    But I do make a correlation between your difficulty to push and your ability to produce gold. So, yes, I think this means you did not build enough units.

    How to recover from that ? Maybe you have a stash of gold that allows you to lose gold during 10 turns without going on strike.
    Maybe capture/pillage gold helps delay the strike.
    And maybe, now that you've got enough units to push forward and capture cities, you can switch priority in your cities and focus on recovery.
    If you capture cities, higher population will mean you can have more units without paying for them ; and you might also lose units in the process, so even less unit upkeep.
    And a few turns after that, those cities should become productive and help recover.

    Recovery : growth, happiness, infrastructure. I'm at such a turning point and I didn't play on, yet, because I wanna be fit when I do - I'm losing 50g per turn but this is all due to cities, I'm not even paying 30g on units.

    Note that the earlier you push, the less resistance you meet. Just like you, the AIs start with nothing.
    So, I do believe that one should get the mass of units that allows a push earlier, rather than later. Of course, you still want to be able to reach important milestones (starting with Pottery and then the usual Currency and stuff). You'll tank your economy earlier but you will also need less production to reap the benefits of city captures.

    Lain is a good player but the format he plays is not comparable to always war. And I don't think anybody is ever gonna stream always war above monarch difficulty.
    That said, you mention STEALING and :
    - The Great Wall is arguably the best wonder in an Always War format (Generals + Spy) and we've had some maps that allowed for it ;
    - Stealing Iron Working in the BCs is always possible if you focus your espionnage points early.
     

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