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The Rise and Fall of the Sea People (IMMaw)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by BornInCantaloup, Jan 22, 2020.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @BornInCantaloup
    I haven't watched them, because AW is something rather new and exotic to me but Lain does have two videos of that:


     
  2. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    I am quite sure that I do not have enough units, I never have. It pulls me again and again towards peaceful buildings (libraries everywhere etc..) and I literally would have to force myself to stay with military production, otherwise I unconsciously forget it. This is probably the yoga part inside of me :)

    On this particular map, I don't see any chance for great stealing. Great Wall would be a real detour, i found useful to have other stuff first.
    Also I found very useful to go for an early IW, the gems can almost entirely compensate for that tech, not only by commerce but also the much needed happiness. Going for Alpha instead, i don't think so, especially when i have also to build spies, and they can get caught. The production (that I lose on spies) is more valuable to me than a theoretical tech steal.
    But the general idea, to steal minor techs even w/o Great Wall is something to consider. Certainly a good idea on Hemisphere/Continent maps where you have not 5 opponents beating at you all the time.

    Yes, Lain had posted 2 AW games on Immortal, but I have not watched them to the end. In the first one, he built the G Wall with Ramsees and trillions of forests, and in the second one he was Victoria with endless FPs, winerys, early horse, etc.... He got extremely lucky landwise here, imo, otoh, he was not so lucky in several combats.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
    krikav likes this.
  3. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    I am really obsessed about this game (in a positive way), which means that i try to maximize my gameplay here. The setting is beautifully evil but within range of the possible :cry:
    So I replayed on Emperor, now again SIP which led me to found the 2. city to the east this time. 3rd city Nobamba will be my future heroic epic spot with 3 mines (where i have already settled 2 GGs), but it was not very productive before the border pop, that's why it was only my 3. city. I wanted the fish though and settled on the corn.
    GM bulbed MC this time, because i still don't have Alpha, but currency is in. Early MC is great (triremes have some value here, forge in the capitol for +2 happiness and for better failgold).
    Got my iron only this turn, it was not safe to settle that spot earlier and then again had to wait for the border pop. I still believe that I MUST settle a hill to the east, so going next to / on the iron was not an option.
    It's okay, i had a good time with HA so far. Took Madrid with Shrine, but decided to raze it! Very tough decision, but when I took it, a melee/spearmen stack from Rosy waited for me on the other side. So better to deny a capitol to the AI then to lose it again, right?

    Spoiler 325 AD, FEUD in 5-7 turns :
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  4. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Comparing my screenshots from the 2 emperor attempts, I must say that it goes in a good direction. In the last game, I was on my way to FEUD already at 100 AD, and created 66 Gold while not researching, but only 7 cities and little war success. This time, i am close to FEUD at 325 AD, my income is only +55 gold, but i have 8 cities (and 1 settler ready next turn), better army and first successes on the battle field. Also i went for Aestetics (instead of Alpha) and put already a lot of hammers into Shwegady which will pay off some time.
    In hindsight of AW, i like my new game much better.
     
  5. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    1000 AD, almost at Guilds, expansion is almost over, i got the marble to the southwest (while the capitol tries to finish Parthenon), and all those fishy/clammy spots in my area. Nodwengu to the North seems to become a GP farm.
    With 400 failgold from Shwegady, I will tech easily for a while, guilds/eng/banking should come in in no-time.
    I don't have the biggest army (no. 4 in the ranking), but i am hugely promoted on most of the guys. The good thing of Isabella still being alive is that she sends pathetic units that I can wipe out for more XP. Still don't know how i will push, i only razed 3 cities so far.
    The last city will probably built on the hill towards Justinian 2W of the spices and push from there.

    Spoiler screenies :
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
     
  6. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    What is your approach to wonders here? it's the time now where the aest-wonders are about to be finished, i thought in the first place, Parthenon over Great Lib, because i want to run specialists in the coastal cities anyway, so i went for that in Ulundi and now i am 1 turn to finishing it, but will delay my decision, if i really finish it or take almost 400 failgold. With that gold, i would go eng/bank/civil service without any complaints.
     
  7. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Thanks for adding screenshots, Tobi, it's a lot easier to understand what's going on in your game ;)
    What units do they have ? Do you have tech superiority with knights ?


    If you want to push, you should only keep "what's necessary" (your assessment for what that is) on the defence. If you have killer longbows, you probably don't need much of the rest.
    e.g. : your mobile force in second 325 AD screenshot : you do not need these guys within your borders.
    Once you have the military tech you want to use, sacrifice the economy somewhat. Bank gold, pump units.

    Mobile force can also go on a killing spree in the desert area NW of Isabella. You may want to pillage roads between Spain and China, so the Chinese don't travel too easy.


    edit : re : wonders :
    I didn't feel the map allowed for wonder production. I was sort of surprised you researched Aesthetics.
    At some point (don't know when), Litterature is certainly needed for the Epics.


    @ Krikav : ok, I stand corrected :goodjob:
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  8. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Knights would be great, they send cats, swords, crossbows, but also pikes. This time, i am first to guilds. I will bring trebs and some xbows are already in place. HE is already built in Nobamba where 3 GG sit and wait...

    Aest was a good move. I had in mind to settle that marble city sooner than later. And i went for it instead of alpha (still dont have it). At the time when 400 gold for Shwegady came in i knew it was worth it. I dont abuse my capitol for units, instead i built forge, market, wonders, triremes, 2settlers. I could maybe even afford parthenon, it would help somewhat when i start my 1st G. Age. Because i dont see pacifism coming. No religion this time. Its okay, is not really needed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  9. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    My “mobile force“ was a mixed stack on its way towards Justiniam. On the road they were surprised by byzantine bad boys who outnumbered them and threatened the poor gem city in the valley. So my smart zulu warriors cut their path and retreated into the forest where they defended with minimal losses. Among those heroes have also been three Drill 2 + shock catapults which i had the audacious idea to attach a GG to because rumor went through the lands about Justinians mortal melee units :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  10. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    It is probably better to take the failgold for Parthenon = 3 HA upgraded to knights. They have already C4 and 5.
    With those units i dare to pillage roads (good idea) and to weaken enemy stacks (if they are without pikes).
     
  11. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Well, this is bad (560 AD) :
    Spoiler :


    So my exploring Axeman did connect Babanango to my trade network.
    I was up to -25gpt ; now down to -50 again. I tried settling a second city on the small island NW of Ulundi but it only gave something like +5gpt.
    I'm not sure I can make it. All cities are on wealth/markets/courthouses.
    Maybe a couple of Forts connect my city again. To be fair, it was dumb on my part to settle in Huayna's face in the first place. And he won't help me, capturing the city, because he only landed 2 catapults.
    Hum... Maybe if I have my archer leave the spot... Is this really where I'm at ? Abandoning cities and getting informed on how the Strike works ?
     

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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
  12. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I think you will struggle. You have no army left. You have too many cities many unhappy as they want to join motherland. Albeit the AI is by no means ready to take you down. Going strike for more than 1 turn would feel like it was going against the spirit of these games.

    Sooner or later the Romans or Americans will send a stack worthy at you. So far they are small. How long can you hold off mace, phants and pults? Maybe even pikes/CKN soon too. I think only 2 of these AI are a major threat. China's land is small/

    Your economy is weak due to size of empire. Perhaps some of these captured cities could of been razed? A forbidden palace might of helped?
     
  13. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Yes, I think you're spot on, Gumbolt, thanks for having a look.
    I certainly overexpanded, couldn't resist the occasion :undecide: and the lack of army is probably the worst thing at the moment.

    I could go back in positive within 3 turns (620 AD) by whipping 3 markets (no strike - and worry not, strike abuse is not my style). The trouble is that I'm building wealth in Ulundi (3 settled GGs). That needs to stop asap.
    America has Macemen and is sieging Seville. I'm just getting Priesthood, so nowhere near Longbows.

    Of course, I'll gradually get more Courthouses (2 at the moment) and the economy will improve but I shouldn't have gone so low without access to better techs.
    I can probably trade 2 axes for each maceman that comes my way. So, now I see I can recover but I won't be able to deal damage anytime soon and they might well be able to.

    Struggle, you say... Who got the bright idea to roll a map like that ? I hope it doesn't end up in :spear:

    Spoiler :


    I mean, I think I can hold this wave if he doesn't reinforce too much while he bombards...
    But the next wave might be trouble.

    Great Person in Nongoma is 15 turns away : that's my golden age and maybe my way out. New-York, that we can see above, has the Mausoleum of Mausoles. So, maybe, just maybe...
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
  14. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Regarding that city next to HC, did you settle that just for better TR or because you want to make sure to get another source of iron? The alternative would have been to go on that marble on the same landmass where harassement is much more unlikely. Do you have a naval force as well? With Shaka being EXP, i found attractive to go for compass (40H for harbors) and if ever possible in the future, for optics as well, because blockade has already taken place from the Chinese part and i could defend vs. his triremes only with combat luck....
     
  15. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Yes, this was my second offshore city. I settled it after I researched Currency.
    It was really a mistake on my part :
    I didn't think that it would attract Huayna's attention ; it wasn't even connected to my trade network at the time (need to uncover southern coast). I'll try to build a passage north with Forts NE and NW of the lake ; need to send extra workers for that.

    I don't have any navy : a single Galley. I used to have a Trireme but Justinian killed it. I can't afford the naval techs at the moment, I'm already badly behind on land.
     
  16. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Up to 980ad and still alive!

    Spoiler Thoughts :


    Took on some of BIC's advice.
    Switched religion.
    Settled a city for iron.
    Captured Rome. (Had actually already done that.)
    Heading towards Byzantine empire.
    I now have machinery. Crossbows will be useful. Especially for pillaging.

    Not seen a Roman stack in a while. Only them andChinese who can really make stacks here. Americans maybe.
     

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  17. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Nice, Gumbolt ! I'll take a look in a little while.
    I've played on as well and, in 800 AD (t150), I have all the moneys again !

    Spoiler :








    Long time no see, China... I'd rather have him send his units in groups of 3-5 than as a real stack...
    So I've took some losses but they were acceptable (not like I had a choice, anyway). America kept sending smallish stacks : manageable.
    Pretty close to Feud, now (maybe 4 turns). I think I'll stabilize. America has Engineering, eek.

    Only those 3 cities are getting attacked, which is a relief. I've started on the Forbidden Palace in Constantinople. I'll soon be able to resume full-time unit production.
    Also getting really close to my Golden Age. I don't think I'll have captured New-York, by then, but it will carry me to the next tech(s).
     
  18. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    @ Gumbolt :
    Spoiler :
    It's very interesting how you're playing this. You've taken care of most of the AIs already and they are non-issues.
    Probably wise to keep the strangle on China (iron tiles), while you sweep the Byzantines.

    You're really low on infrastructure. I'm sort of surprised you didn't invest massively into Forges. Maybe you have a nice window for that, about now.
    I'd try to focus some cities on economic development, if I were you, so you're not forced to keep razing everything (that wasteland south of America, woah !). Maybe the shrines.
    I know it multiplies the time spent on each turn, but some of your cities could use your attention within the city screen.

    So, Forges and, second thought : Calendar. You could easily get +3-5 happies from Calendar (if you settle the dye spot near New-York and get a border pop in Barcelona).
    Something to consider...

    I think you've got the military side of things well in hand. There is one strong AI in your game (army count), which one is it ?
    Their average army count is really low, such a good sign.
     
  19. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    @bic

    Spoiler :


    Impressed how you have turned your game around. You are facing some crazy stacks there. Not seen a proper Ai stack since 800ad. Had a 4 strong China stack appear. China does have a lot of units. I think the power rating is from Romans.

    Yes a lot of wasteland which is probably distracting AI unit. Really worried about any Roman stack that could appear here.

    I have been looking at city tiles but mostly focusing on science to reach machinery. Hopefully I can try and steal Monarchy from Justin. I have built up 500 ep points on him.

    I did consider calendar. I just felt I needed a strong military tech to keep AI in check.

    Forges here would work really well as I have all 3 of gold silver and gems. Also hindu spread would also help in places.

    When you say economic do you mean cottage? Marketplaces or even forge?

    I had not touched this game for 2-3 weeks due to family stuff.
     
  20. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Yeah, economics is a bad term I've used a lot, these past few days.

    In general, I mean growth (i.e. sustainable). In your particular case, I guess I mean infrastructure.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020

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