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The root cause of all the problems...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by amelie, Oct 4, 2010.

  1. amelie

    amelie Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
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    The cause of everyone's problems with CIV 5 is essentially the two things everyone thought was pretty cool when first heard.

    1. Hex
    2. No Stacks.

    Those two excellent choices basically threw away 4 versions and 20 years of development. All the previous versions were essentially similar games with engines and AI that just kept improving upon other versions.

    Now, i haven't bought it yet, I am waiting for patches and praying for removal of STEAM requirements, however I am willing to accept there are going to be some issues because they have had to write a completely new game.

    I'm looking forward to learning a new game that will hopefully (eventually) cause the same addiction as previous versions.

    So, I accept, I thought the changes were cool and thus I must be patient for the game to develop a little more.

    Cheerio

    Edit: I am referring here to a rather large change to the software causing all the problems as it is a brand spanking new development.
     
  2. superoxen

    superoxen Chieftain

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    Truly, I think having hexes and no stacks is not a problem. Maybe not better or worse than the old system, but I don't think it causes any issues other than some pathfinding bugs and contributing to stupid AI tactics.

    To say these things are the root of all problems in Civ 5 is kinda far fetched. How are these things responsible for ridiculous happiness and economic pressures that a player will inevitably find keeping them from having a large empire? How are these things responsible for AI being unreasonable and non communicative, or number of nasty bugs?

    Not trying to say Civ 5 is a bad game, cause I certainly like it. But saying all the bad parts are made by hexes and no stacks is really weird. You should play the game before you say things like that.
     
  3. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    So... I own civ 5, and am one of the 'haters' I guess, I've definitely spoken against it my fair share.

    But, I've never critisized the hex grid or the no stacking. Well, maybe a little in the micro department for the latter.

    In fact, these two things have made the combat EXTREMELY good.
     
  4. amelie

    amelie Chieftain

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    The point is Hexes and No stacks changed everything.

    It changed the Economy and the relative value of things.... this includes happines etc etc.
    It changed movement.
    Combat.....

    Not saying they changed and did a great job. But as soon as they made the hex and stack decision they had to do a whole lot of new coding - causing the issues that people are experiencing.
     
  5. amelie

    amelie Chieftain

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    This is my point.

    Most people like these changes.

    I think they simply underestimated how fundamental the change was when they made this decision........ and therefore produced something that has issues.
     
  6. JoxerNL

    JoxerNL Warlord

    Joined:
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    The most funny part here is that... these haters never tried the demo?
    It was pretty big and mention everywhere about the 1upt and hexes.

    I know i tried the demo and loved it right away, if i didnt like it i would have never bought it.
     
  7. solistus

    solistus Warlord

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    Not really. Happiness being civ-wide has nothing to do with hexes/1UPT. Ditto with not having religions. Ditto with replacing civics with social policies. Changing to hexes certainly changed quite a bit in terms of balancing tile yields, etc., but that's not the aspect of Civ 5 people are unhappy with. Play the game for a couple hours, then get back to us and tell us you think this is really the root of what people are complaining about.
     
  8. amelie

    amelie Chieftain

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    Can't blame them for that. I've never instlled a demo in my life.
     
  9. amelie

    amelie Chieftain

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    I understand what you are saying and who am I to preach when I haven't even played it yet but this is how I think the development went....


    Artistic designer guy: I think I'll draw some hexes on that map...
    Sid: hey that looks cool, lets do it!
    Marketing : We've announced a new brilliant CIV - its a big change and the best yet.
    Developers : Oh <snip>. There goes our life. What moron agreed this?

    Moderator Action: Inappropriate language - warned
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  10. Dinhcara

    Dinhcara Chieftain

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    Sep 13, 2010
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    ^ This


    Please don't make comments like "the root of all the problems" if you haven't played the game. It honestly shows nothing more than an ignorance for what you are trying to discuss.
     
  11. amelie

    amelie Chieftain

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    Thanks for your input.

    Developed much software in your life?

    I am sure to some people just changing a few things on the map and the way units behave is easy peasy and should be no more than 5 minutes development.

    you obviously have a misunderstanding of the point I am making.

    I've edited my original post just for you.....
     
  12. sesaMe

    sesaMe Chieftain

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    hexes are just squares offset by 1 half? like a qwerty keyboard for example. i dont have a strong opinion on them but they do seem more intuitive
     
  13. D10_TheGreat

    D10_TheGreat Chieftain

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    No way, if they just changed Hexes and graphics and 1upt, and everything else was like BtS (maybe they could make a built in revolutions mechanic) it would be the best game my money could buy.

    Currently playing Civ IV since V just isnt cuttin it
     
  14. Booshaka

    Booshaka Chieftain

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    I've observed that hex and no stacks are the least controversial issue with Civ V. And what is your problem. Also why do you not like steam? I've been using steam since Orane Box and have yet to gave an issue.
     
  15. Drakken

    Drakken Warlord

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    The hexes are the best change IMHO. I think the AI is able to handle the hexes. I think the problems come more from the 1 UPT. The AI cannot handle it at all.

    If you get the game try playing against some friends on a LAN. The 1 UPT is difficult to manage, easy to abuse, and you get some very gamey combat results.
     
  16. Thander

    Thander Warlord

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    The only thing I can see these changes caused is the slow turn times. One unit per tile makes the computer have a whole lot more possible moves. Instead of maybe 5 army stacks, they now have 50 individual units to move around. And their movement is harder too. There can be choke points or other obstacles that force the computer to plan how it will move a bunch of units through a small opening.

    I don't think they affect gameplay that much other than having boring wait times every turn.
     
  17. pagh80

    pagh80 Warlord

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    What about the Diplomacy AI?
    The city management AI?
    The automated worker AI?

    I dont see why they needed to take a hit from the hex system.
     
  18. logintime

    logintime Warlord

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    I'm not terribly certain the hexes had anything to do with how broken Diplomacy is. After all, that should run entirely separately from hexes.

    My best bet on that is that when they decided to make the AI based on these 25 'flavors', they ended up making a randomized AI that for whatever reason ends up doing nothing but plotting how to inevitably invade you. Rather than the strictly defined personas in Civ4, we got schizophrenic leaders in Civ5 with no rational basis on why they do anything.

    But even that theory still doesn't explain how certain other features in Diplomacy are broken. Like how the Pact of Cooperation and Pact of Secrecy don't actually do anything.... Or how you can't cancel open borders any way short of declaring war...
     
  19. Fabien

    Fabien Warlord

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    I think the OP is absolutely wrong in his assessment. Hexes didn't change that much, since the concept of movement was never that important in civ. You just had fields to move from a to b, but they didn't touch internal balance. From all changes in Civ V, hexes are probably the most cosmetic change anyway. You could revert the engine to squares, gameplay wouldn't change that much in Civ5. Stacks are also not that far away from the frontlines we have now; combat still consist of building and moving units from a to b in some way or another.

    City states probably changed the gameplay the most; Diplomacy works different (if it works at all :p) and the internal balance between Gold, science and population is quite different - cities probably changed the most, especially when you have to buy individual tiles.
     
  20. AriochIV

    AriochIV Analyst

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    There are many things I dislike about Civ V -- the slow, buggy engine; the obtuse, cryptic UI; the lackluster diplomatic engine; the Happiness system that limits expansion to the point where half the world remains empty; the incompetent AI; the City-State system that feels half-finished; the poor overall game balance. None of things has anything to do with the 1upt system, which I like just fine.
     

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