Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by loocas, Sep 4, 2009.
What do you mean, that's not really Falamar?
"Innocent" meaning celibate? She's a busy girl, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't take time to enjoy the good things.
It's just a bit of misdirection by the author at the beginning of The Grand Menagerie. Nothing plotty.
Oh, THAT! I remember.
I don't buy Ethne being involved in a sexual affair. Giving in to sexual desires (especially illicitly) is strongly a part of Aeron's sphere, and Ethne follows Aeron's arch enemy.
I see Ethne as just being polite, and Talia taking it to refer to Varn missing her sexually. Talia of course wants more physical intimacy, but when it is references feels compelled to make excuses for why Varn has not shown her such affection lately.
While Ethne does have a PRON event with Falamar, it consists of a pleasant dinner and poetry recitation rather than the athletic or kinky sex he has with other women. Women use him sexually so often that he seems almost to prefer this more innocent encounter.
Either way, I now view Ethne as a lesbian. The Elohim just got a whole lot more interesting.
I have trouble accepting that sexual desire is limited to Aeron's followers. Bacchanalia for sure, but not sex for more than procreation. At the same time, I'm not convinced that a follower of Sirona, even the most devout such as Ethne, would abstain. The pinnacle of spirit magic is Trust, which focuses on the bond between people, rather than personal moral ascendance.
I think it comes down to a matter of interpretation. It's a vague passage, but purposefully vague and definitely hinting at something. The way I read it, if Ethne and Talia were referring to Varn, or even Decius, Ethne wouldn't sound so embarrassed for inadvertently bringing it up. Talia says, "We all have our roles to fill, Ethne. Our desires cannot interfere with our goals."; Her using Ethne's name makes the statement more curt and severe, implying a power dynamic, in my opinion. It's a small detail but it makes a difference. It makes me think that she served as a sexual mentor for Ethne, and is now telling her "think no more of it, now is not the time." That's my reading anyhow. Whatever's going on between the two, it's a good piece of dialogue.
This could just as easily be explained as her not being interested in men.
Maybe Kael can tell us. Wherever he is.
In his shoes, I'd be tempted to leave this to the wild mass guessing of the peanut gallery. We are so interesting when we get started on little topics like this.
Personally, I'm going with Loocas' theory with my usual justifications: I like it more, and there isn't enough evidence either way. Regarding Falamar: Ethne sleeping with Talia does not necessarily exclude men.
Classic 1:16 A.M. post, I know...
I think I'm going with Loocas' theory too. Fits my own thoughts better.
That's great. I love the small and big boobs for Arendel and Faeryl.
goddamnit KC you sure called that one.
Well, since this is a spoiler thread:
MC was right about the intentions of the apparently ambiguous passage. Reading more into it would imply that there was a lengthy romance between the two of them under Varn's nose, which would lessen the impact of the affair with Decius in mind, as either Varn was then really out of it, or didn't care about the earlier affair.
Plus, even gender aside, I don't think Talia is Ethne's type. Too primal.
You're right, that does spoil things.
I don't mean to argue this to the bitter end (yes I do), but I think what you wrote and what you meant might differ. I'm going to continue dissecting this dead horse.
I don't think an affair with Ethne would undermine the severity of Talia's affair with Decius. It doesn't need to be a lengthy relationship, it actually sounds more like a one-night thing to me. And it does happen under Varn's nose; Talia is the one who confesses her affair with Decius to him. He doesn't divine it through Lugus, in fact he's completely blind and ignorant to her, despite his devotion to truth and openness. I think such a fault in him is fascinating. He's so one-track-minded that he utterly neglects his marriage for his work, then abandons his work when he needs to turn to his marriage.
Talia is clearly spiteful toward Varn: "And saving the world is important, I know. I am a wretched vile woman for wanting a bit of time from our great savior!" She wants attention. That's why she cheats on him and why she tells him. Varn was actually a pretty good guy about it. He responded with strong emotion, which showed he really loved her, and forgave her when he got over it. What Talia didn't bargain for was what it would feel like to see Varn hurt, and perhaps she didn't expect him to abandon his crusade.
The actual severity of the affair is Os-Gabella's timely introduction of Talia to Lethe. Talia may not have succumbed to Lethe if she weren't regretting hurting Varn. From a fictional standpoint, this is where the dark fantasy comes into play, but also metaphorically it literalizes how sorrow and guilt can claim a person, even in the face of forgiveness and truth.
None of that excludes the possibility of an affair with Ethne. I've already explained why I think Ethne would be a part of it, and this is why I think Talia would be. It was a drastic and desperate way to bring Varn home. Also, she's a druidess, and no one is more sterotypically bisexual and promiscuous (kidding).
Anyway, sorry to argue with the author and I hope you don't take all this as anything but praise. But, in the words of the indomitable Adam Savage, "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
Oh my ham sandwich, you make Talia into such a slut...
While I don't think that having sex is incompatible with Ethne's beliefs, I don't see her participating in adultery.
Hey, in as much as these characters and events take on a life of their own and seem to have an internal consistency and verasimilitude to them, and I worked to make them do so, your speculations are certainly encouraged.
But I was extremely confused by the suggestion when first reading this thread. I like sublty, but the passage suggesting such is a lot lighter touch than I would tend to use.
Anyway, to clarify what I meant and answer your specific points:
"You will be missed here" would, if meant to indicate a relationship between them more than acquaintances, imply something ongoing.
Yes, but to have another, earlier and closer affair also occur underneath his nose emphasizes his blindess and lessens the severity of Decius' offense, perhaps not absolutely but emotionally, to me. It makes Talia less long-suffering; she took it where ever she could get it, rather than trying to be faithful and failing, and it makes Varn blind almost to the point of willfulness, at least without elaborate justification for the trysts which aren't provided.
Heck, Varn was downright heroic about it, especially his reaction to Decius, who he certainly must have some personal distate for, at least momentarily, but still recognizes the use and other virtues of. So of course we leave him on a melancholy note at best in Lord of the Balors.
Over active imaginations in here, conjuring up a whole relationship out of a single line.
I read the line as dramatic irony given Talia then sits between Varn and Decius.
Perhaps, but what fun is reading if you can't take a line as saying that someone is lesbian
Yeah, or that somebody is gay. Huh, FireBlaze remember that? XD
Anyway, I like the design, but can't believe that Ethne was assasined! :'(
It's not a word I like to use myself, but she never tells Decius that she loves him, in fact she says it's for fun.
Oh totally. If I'm overdoing it, it's because I'm excited about the evidence of a possible homosexual relationship in the story. It makes things more real to me and adds depth to all four characters involved. But I know that I'm reading into it and it's not the intention of the author. I know that MC and others say it couldn't happen because of Ethne's character, and Nikis-Knight says shouldn't happen because it compromises the narrative. I don't agree with those and think the relationship can be reasonably inferred, but again I know it's not implied. So I'll just be happy in my little world and leave it be.
lezbolians. Jes had to say it. I think the magi order of female elohim mages shall be called the Lezbolians. Just for humor's sake to honor ethne.
Now on a more serious note .... hmm ... :/ ... Ive got nothing. xD
Separate names with a comma.