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The science of God, or, the God of science

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Timsup2nothin, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    yes, I do think they're very old and rooted mostly in pre-scriptual, oral culture

    I didn't mean just that, I meant that almost anything we're capable off we only know through aping and copying others. the most fundamental things like learning to speak, which in turn teaches you to think in abstract ways. yes, we do have a biological cognitive basis for thinking, influenced by evolution, hardly changed in the last few thousands of years: our brain. but it has been shown that language structures our way of thinking significantly. so, in a way, the people teaching us concepts (words and their abstract ideas) and talking (language and semantics) also teach us how to think.

    this is imho one of the things that make us most human. chimpanzees do not need to learn how to use certain tools. apparently, those connections are to some degree hard wired. so a chimpanzee can very easily make use of tools without knowing what a tool is, or without ever having anyone seen a tool before. humans do not have this hard wired connection at all. in fact when we are born we cannot walk and we cannot talk in any meaningful way. we're helpless, useless, and though we have a nicely developed brain it doesn't do jack ****- a human might by coincidence discover an object as a useful tool, but that happens exceptionally rarely. so all we do, in the end, is we copy the way our parents (and other humans) communicate, we copy the way our parents move, and so on.

    in the end this is very similiar to the scientific method which we developed (not coincidentally) to be similiar to some of the most fundamental features of humandom: observation (empiricism, accumulating data) and recreation (experiment, falsification, etc.). many cognitive scientists now argue that Play also played an essential role in our cognitive development. and play, too, is a form of mimesis and somewhat of an experiment, really: let's pretend I am the Cop and you're the Robber, and then see what happens is similiar to the idea of: let's pretend its -150 degrees celsius and look at the behavior of different Helium derivates.
     
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  2. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Pavlov described it as "second signal system", speech and abstract thinking. As opposed to the first signal system (reflexes) which is common for humans and animals. The thing which allowed us to transfer experience verbally, not only by copying others behavior and succeed much more comparing to other species. I think the appearance of second signal system was the thing which triggered that huge leap in development and made us so different from animals, while complication of brain structure was not that drastic.

    I read about that too, humans don't have instincts in strictly biological sense of this word. Still, I wonder if some of our psychological features might be result of evolution rather than products of culture. Like emotions (fear or fury) helped individual people to survive, may be archetypes made tribes and cultures more successful comparing to adversaries? Just a guess.
     
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  3. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I think the Bible is a useful description of Man's attempt to understand God. My beef with it is that it says false things about God, and people believe those false things. And the culture around those beliefs love those beliefs more than God.

    I've no problem with the plagues as allegory. Or the Flood as allegory. "God is going to kill people horribly, but it's all done out of perfect goodness" is fine, even if non-intuitive. But there are groups that build up theories of goodness based on false beliefs from the Bible. When pressed on 1 Samuel 15, for example, many believers will spin justifications for the story. They do this to square the circle, because they love the Bible. The most parsimonious (and most redeeming) interpretation isn't available to them.

    "There's no evidence that God told Samuel any such thing" doesn't occur. And it should. "I don't need to justify this horror" is probably the cleanest answer. "I'm a prophet, and God told me to command you to murder" is a bit of a bane, having scripture say 'yeah, sometimes this happens' really doesn't help.
     
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  4. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    You argued a while back that actively not to holding a faith does not diminish your ability to argue it. But, El Mac says a book he labels as fiction says untrue things about an entity he also says is fiction is not a compelling statement. I mean it's interesting, sure, and it's nice to share thoughts with you, but :dunno: Might as well dweeb out on Gork and Mork. Would probably be as enlightening and probably more fun.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  5. Moff Jerjerrod

    Moff Jerjerrod Chieftain

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    It's been a long time, and I mean a very long time, since I dared participate in a political or religious thread here at CFC. On top of that there are a lot of new names here I am not familiar with since I left CFC many years ago. Please pardon me if I'm therefor a little out of the loop on the personalities that live here now.

    On the topic of the original post all I can say is that I don't understand most of that science mumbo jumbo. That does not mean I'm not intelligent or educated but what it does mean is that I am not familiar with that experiment or that theory. What I did get out of your original post in this thread is that if God wants to talk to someone he will hit them somehow with a sign or a message and the person will be enlightened.

    My belief is that if the person has an open heart and an open mind it is he that will reach out to God and then God will answer. Remember that God gives us free will. We don't have to believe in him or not. He will not come begging you to believe in him...

    [People misinterpret the witnessing aspect of Christianity as an order to force others to believe 'or else'. I don't think that is what is meant by witnessing. I believe one simply will not be afraid to talk about the Word even at the risk of being ridiculed or reproached but never force the subject upon someone else nor judge them for rejecting you or the message. We need to love one another no matter what our differences may be. One thing, and it doesn't matter whether you believe in any mystical religion or not, is that we are all on this planet together. As members of the same neighborhood village called earth we need to get along and live in peace and harmony.]

    ...but if he senses that you want to reach out to him he will answer and he will answer with love.
     
  6. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    You have to distinguish between God and gods. One is the name of an entity that is the arbiter of morality and the creator of the Universe. The other is a series of man-made fictional entitites. If there's a creator, an entity towards which I am agnostic, it is very much not the god of the Bible.

    The Bible describes a god while trying to understand God. Because the Bible makes mistakes, it calls its god the real God. It makes many errors about God, and because people believe the Bible they end up believing false things about God. People try to understand God. The Bible can lead them astray. And it does. Often.

    The Bible says untrue things about God. I'm apostate from the Christian faith, but it doesn't mean I cannot analyze the changes in the faith over time (remember, I was talking about how the faith had mutated in the post you're referring to).
     
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  7. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    I wouldn't argue "God" cant talk to us but maybe thats just what we call our conscience
     
  8. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    If you, personally, had gotten that streak, I suspect this would not be your attitude.
     
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  9. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Red ones go faster.
     
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  10. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I don't see any reason for him to be concerned about whether you, me or the next guy believes in him. The outcome of man (not A man, not THIS man, just man) is as intended.

    You are right about the misinterpretation of witnessing, and most of the expected "but anyone who doesn't agree with my atheism is either stupid or terrifying so I choose to believe stupid" responders have already made their appearances. Your input is welcomed by me, at the very least.
     
  11. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    I can't speak for other atheists but I don't find most spiritual ideas terrifying. On the contrary I'd love to believe part of myself lives on post-mortem. I find the idea of eternal nothingness terrifying. Reincarnation & eventual Nirvana seems way cooler as do new-agey ideas of going to a bardo type place & choosing your next incarnation to best help you grow as a spirit. Christian ideas of Hell I suppose would be terrifying if they weren't utterly absurd to me.

    Every time I hear from a spiritual person I hope they can convince me (mostly on life after death).
     
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  12. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Sorry, I'm clearly the wrong spiritual person because at this point I'm pretty convinced that God isn't limited to our linear perspective of time so the whole concept of "after death" is superfluous.

    But I wasn't talking about the IDEAS being terrifying. Most of the really rabid atheists are obviously terrified at the idea that any intelligent person disagrees with them. I found it hilarious back when I was heavily on the atheist side of agnosticism, and I find it hilarious now. I don't care if ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE disagrees with me. Why are atheists so overwrought that they don't get 100% agreement?
     
  13. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    I dont think atheists get overwrought very easily. Most atheists are probably closeted because if they say they don't believe the religious take it all personally and get butthurt.

    So the ones who are out of the closet tend to be more vocal/aggressive about it.

    That's my guess.

    In general humans like when other humans agree w them, makes them feel all safe and cozy.
     
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  14. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

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    Disagreement is the ultimate ego-piercing weapon.
     
  15. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Warlord

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    Damn those stupid atheists for thinking religious people are stupid. Stupid atheists.
     
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  16. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Why would I not have that attitude?

    Why do you descend into generalizations?
    I find the irony .... hilarious
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  17. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Warlord

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    I don't believe that God or gods exist at all, but am open to the possibility, however remote I see it, and to evidence that points towards that. But any evidence that requires me to essentially buy into the concept before it will work is useless.
     
  18. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I think that coincidence helps guide us in learning on what we are supposed to do. When trying to understand even a deterministic universe, coincidence is what creates the clues that tell us how the determinism works. Is it just coincidence that every time there is a polio vaccine, there is a reduction in polio transmission? Yes, technically there's a coincidence. And from that point, we try to make claims on how the universe works. And from that, we try to to figure out what to do next.

    It's also interesting how few spiritual texts suggest that coincidence is God's mechanism of communication, despite being the main mechanism by which we learn. The spiritual texts describe miracles, events that to the viewer do not seem possible from the known rules of the universe. Sure, quantum theory says that people can randomly have their blindness heal. But to the audience of that story, that underlying Theory wasn't available. It was described as a miracle, not as a coincidence.

    I am regularly witnessed to by people who believe in the healing power of Prayer. And when they give examples, sometimes they tell stories of things that I would deem miraculous if true. And other times they tell stories where I'm confused as to why to they don't see the obvious Placebo explanation. It leads to mutual frustration. They are frustrated that I'm not impressed with the evidence they present. And I'm frustrated that they are impressed with the evidence they present. As I get older, I get better at more politely asking the questions I have. And better at not dismissing their stories too rudely
     
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  19. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Faith helped heal!

    No, it's just that belief that it would, did.

    So red ones go faster?

    Yes, but we like to call it something less Waagh-y.
     
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  20. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    It's different kind of coincidence though. You can perform a double-blind experiment and show statistically significant relation between vaccine and reduction of transmission.
    Or, more importantly, if there is no such relation, you can demonstrate it too.
    On the contrary, the "communication with God" - kind of coincidence is non-falsifiable. It always comes down to person's subjective judgement whether particular event was a miracle or nothing special.
     

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