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The Scottish civ

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Pangur Bán, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Good Guy / Deviant (depending on context)

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    It's great that there will be a chance to play the Scottish civ in this franchise after all these years.

    However, some of the implementation of this is a bit mad. The capital is Stirling, which was never a capital. Scotland's historic capital before it was Edinburgh was Scone / Perth, where its kings were crowned. Haddington is on the city list. I don't know if one of the designers is from there, it isn't very important historically compared to lots of places.

    They have a Highlander as the unique unit, which is fine; but it has a red coat, which is only worn in the service of the English/British (another civ). American soldiers wore red coats in such service too, but a "Patriot" UU would not have a red coat!

    The leader of Scotland is Robert Bruce, which is fair enough. But they have him speaking Middle English. It is true that this language became the Scottish court language, but only in the late 1300s after the revival of the language's prestige with Chaucer et al. The language was spoken in the south-east of the country and in towns, but Robert was an aristocrat whose native languages were French and Gaelic. English was a middle class language of townsmen and artisans, aristocrats wouldn't have spoken it to social equals or betters. Having Robert Bruce speak English is like having George Bush speak Spanish!

    The red coated Highlanders and Chaucerian Robert Bruce make Scotland look like a miniature England! Why even have a Scottish civ if it's going to be like that?!
     
    BenZL43, Icicle, Morningcalm and 5 others like this.
  2. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I'm glad someone else is as piqued about Stirling being the capital as I am.
     
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  3. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Chieftain

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    Wikipedia seems to think it was the capital.
     
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  4. Loaf Warden

    Loaf Warden (no party affiliation)

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    Scotland wasn't designed to be too English, it was designed to be too British. As was England. (Victoria, Redcoats, British Museum, etc.) They made separate English and Scottish civs and then designed them both with predominantly post-Union things. It's an odd choice, to say the least; either both should have focused on pre-Union elements, or they should have just been merged into a "Great Britain" civ to begin with.

    As for the language, eh, there's a laundry list of leaders who speak the wrong language. My opinion has long been that the whole idea of having leaders speaking to you in "their own language" was a cooler idea in theory than in execution, that it will probably never be possible to really get it right, and that they should just retire the feature. I know I'm in a very small minority on this, so it probably won't happen, but I'm hoping when it comes time for Civ VII, the leaders just won't speak in sound files at all.
     
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  5. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Good Guy / Deviant (depending on context)

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    @Scaramanga Stirling was an important castle and royal residence like Falkland and Linlithgow or Woodstock and Windsor in England. It was never otherwise a capital, except of Stirlingshire (any Wikipedia page that says otherwise needs to be corrected)!

    @Loaf_Warden Indeed, exactly. The Civ franchise has always treated the states of England and Britain as the same thing diachronically (reasonably enough). As a UU, the redcoast Highlander is more suited to the English/British civ (as in the old game Cossacks) than the Scottish civ.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  6. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    In Robert's time the monarchy was transient. It moved from one royal estate to another. Stirling was but one of many. In fact, Robert had the castle there slighted to keep the English from capturing and garrisoning it (which had already happened several times). So it clearly wasn't a critical one for him.

    Stirling would be an adequate capital for a Stuart dynasty leader, as it was more closely connected to that family.'

    Scone is the most appropriate capital for Robert. It was the traditional site of the Scottish coronation rituals. It was so important to the Scottish people that Edward made off with the Stone of Scone in an effort to claim the crown for himself.
     
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  7. DrJambo

    DrJambo Crash-test dummy

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    Totally agree with op.

    I’ve just been renaming them as they’re built, but Haddington is hilarious! Where’s Glasgow, Perth, Fundee? ;)
     
  8. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Good Guy / Deviant (depending on context)

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    Scone is referred to as 'capital of our kingdom' by Mael Coluim IV, and Scotland was sometimes called the 'Kingdom of Scone' in Gaelic poetry. Scone itself was never an urban site, but Perth develops as its burgh (Scone is essentially part of modern Perth). Edinburgh is a capital in later centuries. I don't see any other candidates for capital except those two.
     
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  9. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Warlord

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    Yeah I don't know why they didn't just make it Edinburgh and call it a day.
     
  10. Timodelphia

    Timodelphia Chieftain

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    Yeah, but how well does t he civ play?
     
  11. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Chieftain

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  12. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Good Guy / Deviant (depending on context)

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    Read or heard? Different things. Robert's speech is just Middle English in a Scottish accent. The term 'Middle Scots' is a modern one generally used for the speech of Scottish lowlanders in the early modern period, not for 1300s.
     
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  13. Zantetsuken

    Zantetsuken Chieftain

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    Some of the questionable history decisions aside, any one play them? If so, are they fun? Balanced?
     
  14. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Warlord

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    I noticed this, but it doesn't cite a reference and its history section doesn't describe Stirling as having been the capital. As far as Robert is concerned a more appropriate capital would have been Carlisle, the seat of the Bruces, or St Andrews, where he first held parliament as king.

    At that point the two weren't that distinct, I don't think. The majority of the words are recognisably English.
     
  15. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Chieftain

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    That's fair, I just read it.
     
  16. BenitoChavez

    BenitoChavez Whispering Walrus

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    I started a game with them yesterday. I only had a short time to play them as I had to go to bed for work so I only got to the end of the classical era. I'm currently oozing great scientists due to the civ ability. I need to advance more in techs/culture to get use out of the other abilities. I can see the leader ability getting abused to have crazy production by declaring liberation wars over and over again without actually liberating anything.
     
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  17. Zantetsuken

    Zantetsuken Chieftain

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    Kinda reminds me of my Australia games
     
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  18. Nobody

    Nobody Gangster

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    They should have made Ireland!
     
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  19. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Warlord

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    Maybe they're leaving the door open to bring 'The Celts' back in Irish-themed form - so Ireland will be to the Celts what Denmark was to the Vikings in Civ V, where Scotland is to them what Sweden was to the Vikings in Civ V.
     
  20. Katakanja

    Katakanja Warlord

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    I was thinking that since Scotland is essentially a science/production themed take on what would have been the Celts in past games, Ireland could instead focus on a culture/faith angle. Give them similar bonuses to GP generation but a different UU, UA and LUA and you get a different civ that has a built in similarity to the Scots, to serve as a nod to their shared Celtic heritage.
     
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