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The situation on the other continent

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May 24, 2010
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The Brotherhood and Anarchy have both sent us messages within a few hours of each other asking for deals. It seems their deal for the Republic did not go as planned. These messages also involve Kuche. Rather than have the discussion split into three embassies, I figured we could have it here. Here are the messages:

From the Brotherhood:
Spoiler :
Dear leaders of the Eagles and the Küche,
we have learned that the two of you are in a cooperation now that forbids any dealings with a third party. Nevertheless we want to make a very attractive proposal. Please think about it carefully and then give us your answer.

We offer:

Both of you can have

Republic in an impromptu trade, meaning starting this turn (should take max 1 turn with send-accept), and
Literature, which will be sent once you have finished Map Making

in one package.

We want:

Map Making + Ceremonial Burial + Warrior Code + 14 gpt.
It does not matter, who of you pays what, but in total something like this.
You let us be part of your trade loop, with prospects of further tech exchanges during AA/MA. (For the German speakers among you, let me quote a famous poem of Friedrich Schiller's: "Ich sei, gewährt mir die Bitte, in Eurem Bunde der Dritte!" -- Calis should be able to explain, what it means...)
A decent price (say 50% gpt) for your first middle-age techs (You are both scientific, aren't you?).
A guaranteed peace deal for let's say 50 turns.


You may wonder, what all this is about, therefore let me be open: we know that our continent is two key technologies ahead of your continent: Literature and Republic, and that we would very likely have no difficulty pulling even further ahead over your continent, if we enter an alliance with the Anarchos, similar to the one you have started. However, this "cold war like block philosophy" (NATO vs East-Block) is not exactly our taste. We have become seafaring for a reason, but if half the world is not trading with us, it's no fun. The game would be much too predictable, and therefore we offer this quite unusual deal. - Some of you have already learnt that we even could consider to arrange a peaceful game until the end, but that is another story.

The benefits for both sides are obvious: you will get Republic some 20 turns earlier and don't have to fear falling behind in growth, research and production, while our tribe will be able to benefit from further trade relations and hope for a peaceful coexistence with the nations on your continent.

We will now wait for your answer and use our timeouts if necessary, but please do try to respond as soon as possible. The sooner we make our deal, the sooner we can execute the trade.

With best Regards, Sir Lanzelot, Knight of the Round Table

From Anarchy:
Spoiler :
Dear Eagles,

we want to be honest to you. We dislike the Knights' way of communicating. At first we did not want to deal with you as the Knights are our "natural" partner and ally in this game.

But it is impossible to cooperate with the Knights; sure we can make deals with them, even an alliance is possible. But the Knights aren't looking for a fair contract, the communication is exhausting and we doubt they are writing the truth.

So we cannot have the ally we want to, and we do not like the idea of the Knights winning this game. So we want to make a proposal to you and your neighbour:

We want you as our allies in a 3 vs 1 against the Knights. We do need a long term NAP (non-aggression pact), because we are afraid, that if you are on our continent with your troops we are the natural aim of your forces. We do know, that our chances are slim, being alone on our continent, but knowing that the Knights are isolated is worth it.
We would like you to manage communication with the "Küche", because we do not have contact right now.

Oh, right... about being honest: we are still in contact with the Knights, and we do have different oppinions in the team. There are some Anarchists still hoping for an alliance with the Knights but some others who can not imagine that alliance.

I'm making this request, because I can't stand the fact that we worked only into one direction until now. I do have the permission of several active team members to contact you, so it isn't a solo attempt to contact you.

I'm looking forward to good communication and hoping for even more.

Sincerely Yours
Loki
Be carefull!

Dear Eagles,

our negotiations about an alliance with the Knights have reached a crucial point, we would warn you about them and their deals: Independently of any future alliance, the Knights and us signed a contract that would give us the republic as soon as it has been researched and them our middle age bonus tech.

Right at the moment they have researched the republic, they suddenly demand more than the payment that had already been agreed. They're indirectly threatening to keep the republic for themselves if we do not give in.

As it is clear that the Knights have recently intensified negotiations with your continent, we hope that you will be very carefull in dealing with people who do not live up to their contracts.

Sincerely

A voice of the free people

I think we should aim to keep these two at each other's throats, maybe even ally with one. We need to send a message to Kuche with Anarchy's messages attached, and ask them for their opinion. Something like this:

To our friends in the Kitchen:

You have no doubt received a message from the Brotherhood asking for a deal with both of us. We have also received similar messages from Anarchy, who we met a short time ago, and we are passing them on to you. It appears their deal for the republic has not been followed through on:
Stick 'em here.

We are at the moment trying to process this turn of events, and would like to know your opinion on them. We are inclined to believe Anarchy's version of the events, and we do not like the Brotherhood's offer in its current form, but we would like to have these teams fighting each other if possible. [EDIT] We would also like to know when you expect to complete the Republic.

Sincerely, The Eagles.

It couldn't hurt to tell Anarchy of our similar deal with the Brotherhood that fell through.
 
It's going to be a busy weekend mostly away from the computer for me, but my quick thoughts -

The Brotherhood apparently will have Republic within 1-2 turns. Kuche I think will not have it for 10+ turns. If we could get Republic earlier than most tribes, then it would be great, but it sounds as if if we get it, then the Kuche gets it, and only Anarchie would lack it. The Brotherhood would probably be able to swallow Anarchie too quickly.

If we wait for Republic, then we are one of 3 without it. I don't want a real 3 vs. 1 against The Brotherhood because we can't have Anarchie own their continent, but I think I would prefer to isolate the Brotherhood diplomatically.

I think our goal should be to work closely with Kuche, throw Anarchie enough bones to keep them from working with the Brotherhood, and avoid trades with the Brotherhood.
 
I wish I had read the Anarchy thread before the Brotherhood thread. That puts their offer in a different light; makes it seem sort of desperate.

Great diplomacy; making all your neighbors upset with you in just a handful of turns.

Looks like the Brotherhood beelined to Republic so they could sell it around (good strategy) but then their salesman got kicked out the stores. That has made the rest of the world Annoyed/Furious with them and now they have a problem. No trades, no friends and possibly no future.
 
I agree with Chamnix. We don't want either of them to control their continent, but I would prefer that they don't work together either. I'd like to see minimal trading between Us/Kuche and Anarchie, but not too much.
 
I think there is a war brewing on the other continent and both teams are concerned about getting dog piled.

This statement made by Anarchy stands out:

"We want you as our allies in a 3 vs 1 against the Knights. We do need a long term NAP (non-aggression pact), because we are afraid, that if you are on our continent with your troops we are the natural aim of your forces"

Why do they want a NAP? Either they're worried we'll send troops to their continent to help the Brotherhood destroy them or they're worried that the troops we have on their continent after the Brotherhood is defeated will then be used to destroy them.
 
Sorry, I am also having a very busy weekend.

But I think we have a bit of time to negotiate things, as no tech is close to completion right now.
 
A response from the Kitchen about the Brotherhood's proposal.....

Dear Calis of the Flock,

you have probably received the Knights’ proposal to break our current alliance in order to join us. It seems that they wish to isolate the Anarchos and problaby launch a military attack against them. You won't be surprised that we neither prefer to violate our arrangement nor to form a situation where one tribe is facing three tribes working against it.

How do you think about the proposal? We would like to decline it.

Best wishes,

yours sincerely, Cotta the flavour enhancer
 
"It seems that they wish to isolate the Anarchos and problaby launch a military attack against them."

Yes, and Anarchy likely wants to do the exact same thing to the Brotherhood.


"You won't be surprised that we neither prefer to violate our arrangement nor to form a situation where one tribe is facing three tribes working against it."

I'm not necessarily opposed to 3 vs 1 as long as the 1 isn't us. :lol:

Getting a foothold on the other continent wouldn't be a bad thing but we don't have the resources at this point to fight and hold territory that far away. It would be better to continue filling in our own continent while the Brotherhood and Anarchy wear each other down.
 
Here's a reply we can send to Kuche:
Dear Cotta of Kuche,

We have indeed received the same proposal from the Brotherhood, and a similar one from Anarchie, who we met just recently. Here are Anarchy's messages (we have not replied):

Dear Eagles,

we want to be honest to you. We dislike the Knights' way of communicating. At first we did not want to deal with you as the Knights are our "natural" partner and ally in this game.

But it is impossible to cooperate with the Knights; sure we can make deals with them, even an alliance is possible. But the Knights aren't looking for a fair contract, the communication is exhausting and we doubt they are writing the truth.

So we cannot have the ally we want to, and we do not like the idea of the Knights winning this game. So we want to make a proposal to you and your neighbour:

We want you as our allies in a 3 vs 1 against the Knights. We do need a long term NAP (non-aggression pact), because we are afraid, that if you are on our continent with your troops we are the natural aim of your forces. We do know, that our chances are slim, being alone on our continent, but knowing that the Knights are isolated is worth it.
We would like you to manage communication with the "Küche", because we do not have contact right now.

Oh, right... about being honest: we are still in contact with the Knights, and we do have different oppinions in the team. There are some Anarchists still hoping for an alliance with the Knights but some others who can not imagine that alliance.

I'm making this request, because I can't stand the fact that we worked only into one direction until now. I do have the permission of several active team members to contact you, so it isn't a solo attempt to contact you.

I'm looking forward to good communication and hoping for even more.

Sincerely Yours
Loki

Be carefull!

Dear Eagles,

our negotiations about an alliance with the Knights have reached a crucial point, we would warn you about them and their deals: Independently of any future alliance, the Knights and us signed a contract that would give us the republic as soon as it has been researched and them our middle age bonus tech.

Right at the moment they have researched the republic, they suddenly demand more than the payment that had already been agreed. They're indirectly threatening to keep the republic for themselves if we do not give in.

As it is clear that the Knights have recently intensified negotiations with your continent, we hope that you will be very carefull in dealing with people who do not live up to their contracts.

Sincerely

A voice of the free people

We are of the opinion that Anarchie is telling the truth (mostly). We agree with you that a 3 vs 1 situation would be disagreeable for both of our teams, but we would like to try to keep Anarchy and the Brotherhood against each other, as that can only benefit our teams. We think that in that case we should make sure Anarchy and the Brotherhood are equally advanced so one team does not gain the upper hand. We would of course keep you informed of any deals made and would compensate you.

If you have any ideas as to how we can properly maneuver this situation to our advantage, please let us know.

Sincerely, Calis of the Flock

If we want to get a 2 vs. 1 vs. 1, what would be the best way to do that? We could say yes to both teams and betray one or both of them, or say yes to one team (Anarchy). If we spurn both teams, they will probably ally.
 
I get the feeling that the Brotherhood and the Anarchie are feigning discontent in an attempt to manipulate our continent.

The Anarchie just claimed that the BH is researching Map Making, yet BH is asking for MM in its deal proposal. The Anarchie claims an alliance with the BH is readily available to them, in fact half the team is still leaning in that direction. They've made a deal and are apparently unhappy with some re-negotiations, that's understandable. A little rub there. But cause to declare a 3 vs 1? They have no Army, so a non-aggression pact with our continent is strongly desired by them, but they are in no shape to take on the BH in any fashion.

The BH is set now with Republic, ready to go into Anarchy and change governments. They want to barter for the remaining AA techs so they can jetison of into the MA. By gleaning any extra gpt we have, they can slow our research. Plus with a long term NAP, it will be smooth sailing for them until they hake Pikes and Knights.

They know we have allied with the Kitchen. Probably their best course of action is to ally themselves and have the continents race to technological sumpremecy, if possible. So they make a deal. BH remains smaller while letting their population grow, and producing Warriors to bump up their military numbers. The Anarchie expands like crazy. They have been promised the Republic and do not feel the need to produce military or research technology. Just expand like crazy.

Then they bombard us with long proposals, malcontent, and long peace treaties. Trying to throw a wrench in our gears while they shift gears, claiming we're not negotiating with them, and publically ally as a strong and powerful continent.

I think we showed play isolationists and ignore their requests all together. We can feign involvement and concern, but shouldn't sign any deals. Hopefully, BH will respond to our latest communication and spill some truth in our direction. Not that it will change my opinion, but it will let us understand history a little better.
 
Well, no truth from the hood. If Anarchie will give us literature for republic, I think it's a deal we should take, as they would get republic by allying with the Brotherhood in any case. If that doesn't win, I think we can do well with a 2 vs. 2, we have better relations with Kuche (probably, unless your theory is correct), and we have Dromons. We might be a little behind right now, but we're capable of getting that advantage by burning stuff (not our stuff).
 
I get the feeling that the Brotherhood and the Anarchie are feigning discontent in an attempt to manipulate our continent.

Perhaps we should accept Anarchie's invitation to review their diplomatic traffic:

"As the Knights are very likely already spreading bad talk about us, we invite you: If you have any doubt that we are speaking the truth, just ask, and we will publish the diplomac traffic between the free people and the Knights the embassy as proof, for example the contracts they breached and their "justification" (but since that's hundreds of individual messages, we'd have to skip some for practical reasons)."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10588961&postcount=54
 
All we really need to know about is the Republic. That can be sent to the BH as a specific item to reference for us.

Although you seem very content with Anarchie's diplomacy, I think receiving selective passages "for practical reasons", is again a bad idea. You want to give them the opportunity to snip and paste together their own glorious history. For free none-the-less. How courteous of the Anarchie.

I never implied we were going to give the BH anything for their information beyond some points in the positive column. That should suffice. We have a communication ongoing with them, let's see what pans out.
 
It's going to be a busy weekend mostly away from the computer for me, but my quick thoughts -

The Brotherhood apparently will have Republic within 1-2 turns.

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We played a turn on the 6th of June and we just played the following turn about an hour ago. Just so everyone is on the same page, The Brotherhood is in revolt to a Republic.
 

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All we really need to know about is the Republic. That can be sent to the BH as a specific item to reference for us.

Although you seem very content with Anarchie's diplomacy, I think receiving selective passages "for practical reasons", is again a bad idea. You want to give them the opportunity to snip and paste together their own glorious history. For free none-the-less. How courteous of the Anarchie.

I never implied we were going to give the BH anything for their information beyond some points in the positive column. That should suffice. We have a communication ongoing with them, let's see what pans out.

As far as I can see, we have nothing to lose if we accept Anarchie's offer to show us the diplomatic traffic.

At best, it may tip us off that something shady is going on or at least give us a clearer picture of the situation. At worst, we'll decide it's nothing but propaganda and be no better off than we currently are.

The BH has only offered to give us info on the tech trades in exchange for info on our own tech trades. Anarchie will likely give us the same info and perhaps more for nothing. So, I'd rather see us keep them both in the dark about our own trades while trying to gather some useful info from Anarchie.
 
The BH has only offered to give us info on the tech trades in exchange for info on our own tech trades.
That's if you do the deal, not if I do the deal.
Anarchie will likely give us the same info and perhaps more for nothing.
Yeah, in your dreams. Do you really think these teams are going to say the same thing? How closely matched were our thoughts to the BH on our tech relations.
So, I'd rather see us keep them both in the dark about our own trades while trying to gather some useful info from Anarchie.
EC, that's what we're trying to do. Just hold you horses till we get some info from the BH.
 
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