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The Spanish Reconquista (RCQ)

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by LouLong, Mar 25, 2005.

  1. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    The irony! After further wars with Castile and Almoravids, establishing myself as the leading Christian power, I made the mistake of making an alliance with the Almoravids against the Almohads, which started a chain reaction causing just about everyone on the table to declare war on me. Routed from La Mancha and fighting defensively around Leon and on the Portuguese border, I could only helplessly watch as the Almohads ran away in VP. Good work, fellow Christians ...

    Diplomacy is very important in this scenario, which I like. The Almoravids are absurdly unwilling to part with the Arabic Science tech.

    It's very hard to defend cities with those defense 2 levies when everything's got 3-4 attack points.

    War Weariness in Feudalism quickly gets very bad. I don't know if it makes too much sense in a scenario like this.
     
  2. LouLong

    LouLong In love with Rei Ayanami

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    Yep, diplo is really a problem. It is possible to buy/extort Arabic science. I am sure as I have done it a few times. But it sure is not easy. After all, that is one of the chokepoints and intended that way.

    Levies are poor and feudalism has WW but that should motivate you even more towards monarchy. And there are many improvements (or even citiy sizes) that add very good defensive bonus. A city with walls and castle is hard to take, even defended with levies. Of course recently captured cities are kind of "open" hence the need of frequent peace treaties. That was normal in feudalism. Short campaigns then when knights had their bounty they would go home or fight but unhapilly and forced to (=WW).

    Of course a thought of concept can turn into a bad in-game mechanic so WW might be too much.
     
  3. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    The problem is that the Civ3 diplo system with 20 turn peace treaties means everyone gets pissed off at you if you go back and forth from peace to war too often.
     
  4. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    Set up a new game as Portugal.

    There's an easy exploit with the English Crusader - keep 'em in Leonese territory, and the irate Leonese will teleport them to your own territory.

    I tried my luck attacking the infidel Almoravids directly, and was promptly defeated at Covilha and Lisboa. The Almoravids, tho, were pretty preoccupied with the Almohads, and were happy enough to sign a peace treaty in return for some cash. I suppose I'll have to do some building before I attack again.

    Leon and Castile are beating up one another. Other than that, about the only interesting thing to happen yet is Bayonne falling to an Almohad landing force.

    Edit: This scenario is cursed or something. :crazyeye: After some successes against the Almoravids (who seem to fight off the Almohads alot better this time), Leon stabbed me in the back, and everything was pretty much downhill from there.
     
  5. killercane

    killercane Deity

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    Ive started 4 random games (Valencia, France, Castille, Portugal- demigod) with the scenario, and Ive found that this rings true. Growth with feudalism doesnt give a very good return with so few luxes and the WW problem.

    The unit support costs are atrocious getting to monarchy, even with tons of money flowing in from the AIs. For ex., with France I went Crusades-Apprisio (sp), traded for the rest of the AA techs and a lot of gold, started on Monarchy at max in Feudi (13 turns?), and was running a -45 gpt deficit that was steadily increasing as I amassed enough Knights (15) to mount an offensive. I would advise someone to stay in Early Monarchy for the best balance of war + research.

    I also found that the monastery didnt give any tangible benefit, but that also might have been a WW problem (which was exacerbated by the pirates launching a naval attack on one of my cities defended by 2 levies in the French game). And the colon, do they for sure add to city pop when built (per civilopedia)? I tried and the city didnt grow. A 2 shield unit that increases your pop by 1 could seemingly be exploited heavily.

    Portugal is certainly the easiest of the civs, and Valencia was a nice researcher with easily accessible lux nearby and decent low cost troops. Castille has a lot of leeway in choosing their own path.

    Nice scenario Lou, you have me playing all of your great works now. I might try Boer War when you get it updated.
     
  6. LouLong

    LouLong In love with Rei Ayanami

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    Well, thanks.

    Actually this scenario is not finished. Not that I became lazy but 1/ it did not draw so much attention 2/ I had other scenarios I wanted to advance 3/ depending on how people switch completely to Civ4 or not, I would release it under a complete set of Conquests about Medieval Europe (incorporates many scenarios).

    But thanks for the feedback, indeed feudalism was a bit tough. I wanted it that way to make the first age fast in tech numbers but slow in research but I probably made it a bit too tough.

    If there is enough interest I might finish it now and publish a final version (I already did 2 private versions since that that work better).

    The Boer War is really nearing completion. I just wait for the tech-tree arrows. All else is done, tested and working (albeit the AI is not always brilliant in its use of some "modern" units). So you can expect it anyday soon. And I sure think it can be nice in PBEMs. I will try to set up a SG game as well on both sides to test it more.
     
  7. Balam

    Balam Sacrificial Victim

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    Finally beat this as the Nasrids (Monarch)! It IS possible! The key is getting the Christians to fight each other and PRAYING that someone, anyone, will set up an embassy in your capital (because you can't as one of the Muslim powers; diplomacy was the only thing that kept me alive). I was REALLY sweet and nice to everyone for a while, then Portugal set up an embassy, and I got them to ally against France-Navarra. I let Valencia live and played nice with them too, and somehow all the troops moving around Castille and Leon pissed them off and they eventually attacked Portugal.

    After polishing off Navarre and annexing France (the Almoravids died a quick death at hands of Almohad, Porto, and Nasrid alliance), I realized that Castille was getting too powerful and my borders were stretched too thin, so when they wanted me to kill Porto--I did. Annexed bits of Leon when they were distracted too, didn't care about rep at the end and scored a VP victory.

    Those hordes of Almohads weakening cities (and then me taking them), constantly moving troops (over my new land) were really helpful. Thanks, I guess. :D
     
  8. A.T.S

    A.T.S Chieftain

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    Hello
    I know this is an old threat, but why are Leon and castilla two countries? since 1038 they where united into one country by Fernando I.

    But no matter, Loulong you are (one of) the best scenario creator in Civfanatics!!!
     
  9. LouLong

    LouLong In love with Rei Ayanami

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    Well I hope it is not that old a thread, I am just about to release an new version !
    ;)

    Anyway to answer your question :

    - many people wanted a separate Leon
    - to separate them was better for balance as otherwise they would become the Christian behemoth too easily.
    - they were separated again between 1157 and 1230 and this process of feudal unity through mariage cannot be represented. Since we cannot include events I thought actual warfare could represent it. But in the MP version (soon to be released) Castilla and Leon will be one.

    So altogether it is not perfectly accurate (imposible) but is kind of representative I think.


    Well thanks ! :) I never considered myself to be the best but if I can give players some pleasure (and some historical lessons !) then I am happy !
     
  10. LouLong

    LouLong In love with Rei Ayanami

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    BTW thought this scenario had only interested a handful of people but just saw there have been more than 1,200 downloads. Apart from the difficulties of installing a patch I guess most of the people who downloaded the scenario actualy played it so a little feedback now would be nice before I release the new version (so as to avoid another patch right afterwards....).

    So feedback, comments, ideas, suggestions are all welcome ! Only for 1 week or so !
     
  11. The_Godfather

    The_Godfather Chieftain

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    i downloaded the main file and the patch but it says pediaicon error with the madrasa building.
     
  12. Mentat

    Mentat Illienthir Master

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    Ok, Lou, I am actually one of those 1200 downloaders, and have played the scenario quite a few times. To start with, its doubtlessly your best scenario, though it could use some polish and aswell some corrections to enhance both, playability and historic accuracy.

    I have manipulated a few stats and added some troops and techs aswell if I recall correctly, mainly to represent the gunpowderage units for the muslim factions. I have to go through the amended Biqfile to exactly bring up the changes I have made. Naturally its up to you, to implement those ideas, or simply scrap them. One thing that I remember is that I imported the Arabian Musketman from Plotinus Africa Scenario. It makes sense, that the Muslim factions grow stronger once again towards the end of the scenario.

    From my games I remember that Leon was too powerful in most games, and Castille aswell as Portugal were taken out many times by Leon-Muslim Alliances. Even unallied, Leon is stronger then any other Christian faction, maybe even stronger then the Muslims. Portugal and Castille on the other hand are a little too weak and a great deal too passiv.

    I just recall having also changed/corrected some locations of cities, mostly to cover my own longings for such a scenario. If you know or even own the game "Crusader Kings", I strongly recommand playing the Reconquista period with one of the Iberian Factions. From my knowlegde its ought to be the best simulation of this conflict, especially regarding historic places/provinces and ruling dynasties.

    One more point comes up to my mind. Unfortunately some wonders/improvements are not working as intended. Production of most autoproduced units for example. I have not yet found any reason, what causes this though. Give me a few days, maybe a week and I will see through my files, to give you a more sophisticated feedback.
     
  13. TopGun

    TopGun 258 kills

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    I've also downloaded and played this scenario extensively. One of the things that annoyed me most was how strong the French and the Provenceaux were. More than once did they completely upset the political and military balance on the Iberian peninsula. IMO, they don't even have to be part of the scenario.
    Also, I replaced the city graphics for the Moorish civs with something more appropriate (RedAlert's mideastern I think).
    And as far as leaderheads go... I would actually prefer flags/coat-of-arms leaderheads over the standard civ LH's. Kinda odd to have to look into Bismarck's face and trying to convince myself he's a Provenceau (for instance).
    Other than that... very challenging and fun to play.
     
  14. LouLong

    LouLong In love with Rei Ayanami

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    Thanks for the feedback guys ! And sorry for the delay, I was "off" for a "long" week because of real-life.

    At least I am happy I did not "work" for nothing/none. :)

    @ Mentat : personally I thought TGA (the Great Armada) was the best but no problem. And I have no ego problem ;) so I accept critics especially since I requested them. Some of your ideas sound interesting. Would it be possible for you to upload your biq for me to have a look at it (and also if you agree to let me borrow some ideas ! :) ) ? I already added some more techs for the Muslims during the gunpowder age and I think a renewed balance in strength is a good idea but I can still use help I think.
    Don't know the game you mentionned :(
    But Leon being too strong has been mentionned a few times so I will have to do something about it.
    Take your time (I had to delay the update because of RL anyway) ! And I will check your infos carefully.
    Could you be more precise about the spawning-units improvements that don't work ?

    @ TopGun : France and Provence are actually there to provide help to the Christians but the diplomatic situation is already so dynamic with so many countries that indeed, more often than not, they are dangerous allies and carve large holdings for themselves.
    I will weaken them a lot and remove them completely (at least in the MP version). In the SP version weakening them might be enough.
    Coats of arms are a nice idea unfortunately we don't have much for the Muslim powers.
     
  15. Mentat

    Mentat Illienthir Master

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    ;)

    I thought you would mention TGA. But thats another story, I just played TGA once and was a little delusioned when playing the Dutch. Found also a BUG I think. When I had to battle once again the weirdo AI played german empire, at one moment all their troops had vanished and their cities left with about 8 to 20 guns each. So one simply could walk in thos cities, take them over and all those guns aswell. But keep that aside, I just wasn't in the mood for another round yet, but that might have been a fault. I might give another try in some time and give better feedback on it.

    Back to topic now. I was a little busy lately, so give me a little more time to upload everthing. You are welcome to implement any idea that I had/have. All I do is a little consulting. Its all your work, and a good one as such.

    I will give more details on everything with the upload. A few things ahead though, just ideas for now. Well I know you are French, but I think it would be more accurate to replace France with England, well speaking of King Henry II - England (The guy from Anjou, quite well known to be the first knight using a heraldic symbol -> Plantagenet = "planta genista" and so on). I guess during most of the Reconquista period the duchies of Aquitaine and Gascogne stayed under English control (at least until mid 15th century, 1453). This "England" could be in some kind of alliance with Portugal, in respect of the "treaty of Windsor", which was kind of the starting point for the english-portuguese alliance. I would also replace Provence with the eitehr the county of Toulouse or France, but rather Toulouse for the follwing reasons. The count of Toulouse had a quite some influence during that period and was also pretty independend of what remained of the scatered french kingdom, which didn't regain power until the end of the hundred years war with england. In fact, I think the french Kings depended heavily on the Toulouse support. The county of Toulouse also had more impact on the meddling on the Iberian peninsula, and could be close with Aragon. The county of Provence(part of Kingdom Arelat) on the other hand was still part of the Holy German Empire for quite some time, and geographically somewhat more distant to Spain etc.

    A yes, and I would change some locations/citynames, but look those up in the BIQ.

    Edit, oh yes, and look up for the games from Paradox (Europa Universalis I & II, Victoria, Crusader Kings etc.)
    http://www.paradoxplaza.com/othertitles.asp
    Here is a review, no idea what it says, I've googled it
    http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/crusaderkings/review.html

    Its an excellent game, but be warned its complex, tough ^^ and seductive.
     
  16. LouLong

    LouLong In love with Rei Ayanami

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    Did you mean to attach a biq file ? Because I cannot see it.

    About France you are actually perfectly right :( !
    I have already changed France to Toulouse and will add Guyenne (cannot put them in an alliance with Portugal though as all my alliance slots are currently taken). But I will also do a version with no state north of the Pyrenees.

    I have added coat of arms for Leon, Castilla, Navarra, Aragon-Barcelona, Toulouse and Provence. But it seems a bit weird to have all the others as actual leaderheads....

    Added some more improvements (bridge, windmill, smithy, fishing docks), corrected/changed/added lots of gfx (the new version is altogether much cleaner), more techs and units for the late Muslims, changed a few costs.

    I will probably reorganize completely the building list so that one does not have to "fish" for cheap basic improvements at the bottom.

    Worked a lot on the governments as well.

    And very important, an MP version as we will soon start a PBEM to test it (and for fun as well !).
     
  17. Mentat

    Mentat Illienthir Master

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    Hmm, I might have a look and provide some coat of arms for the other factions, the arabian ones should be hardest to come by, but nothing is impossible. ^^

    Regarding the Biq, I was too lazy and didn't upload it yet. But yout got me now, I'll do it today, hopefully before the semifinals starts.

    I am not so sure if you should add "Provence" at all, but thats up to you.
    I would go with England and Toulouse, instead of France and Provence.

    One more interesting thing that I stepped on lately. While many of us still believe(at least I did), that knights were quite unique for Europe, they were not. In fact the Persians (Saffayid empire I guess) already had a system featuring knights and their specific code of honor about the time when Europe just overcame the troubles after the end of the (western) Roman Empire. Its believed that the ideals of knighthood came to Europe during/after the first crusade, when Europeans got in contact with the Orient and its advanced knowledge once more. To my knowledge, its also possible that knighthood and heraldism transpired to western Europe during the time of Reconquista, or somewhat earlier. Thats my speculation at least.

    OK await my upload today, but don't crucify me if I fail to. In case Portugal wins over France in the semifinals, I might be well celebrating this evening. ^^

    Edit: Forgot to say, that the changes you alraedy did, sound very promising. Especially Windmills are a very important addition. At that time they were an ultimate advance. Maybe the first real industrial installment, a beautiful and clever one.
     
  18. LouLong

    LouLong In love with Rei Ayanami

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    Indeed the Arab civs are not specially famous for coat of arms AFAIK.

    About the civs north of the Pyrenees the result would be Guyenne/England, Toulouse and Provence but with less land in the North. I really think Provence is worth adding as it can be an ally for Aragon that otherwise starts quite weak and they are another maritime power mostly to limit the power of the Pirates. Anyway as I said there will be a version with no Guyenne, Toulouse and Provence for those who want to focus on the Iberian peninsula proper (and who don't want to get dragged into war because of the rather different diplomacy of these states).

    I agree/know about the Muslim knights albeit not for fanatics (they fit more in the Decadency of an established state with fixed social classes) albeit I have one problem : I lack the unit (I thought of using Kinboat's cataphract at one time or an AoK Muslim knight but IMHO they hardly fit....).

    I won't crucify you ! :) I am not interested in football and since I am 1/4 Portuguese I have no national feeling at stake tonight but I can understand the fever it gives to many people.

    Indeed windmills was a necessity, cannot believe I forgot it in the previous iterations of the scenario though :( .

    Off-topic : do you know PBEMs ?
    It might interest you so you can have a look there (it is much more interesting for games with complicated diplomacy like this scenario) : http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=90
     
  19. LouLong

    LouLong In love with Rei Ayanami

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    Sorry for the late reply, I hadn't seen your post. :(

    Anyway seems like a problem installing the patch. However I would advise you now to wait for the newest version that will be out before the end of July and will come in a single/simple package and will be much cleaner and balanced anyway.
     
  20. LouLong

    LouLong In love with Rei Ayanami

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    BTW since I am also working on the last (I hope) version of TGA, feedback is also welcome. But I am just not sure I understand by what you say about being "delusioned when playing the Dutch" ? And I never encountered the bug you mentionned about Germany. They will only be able to build defenses anyway so no more cannons and impossible to conquer their cities (as intended).
     

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