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The Spanish Riding School: Haut Ecole for Warhorses

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Bede, Apr 24, 2006.

  1. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Hi,

    sorry for taking so long again - yesterday, Mrs. Ky made it very clear that playing Civ would be a Very Bad Idea(tm), and of course I obliged. ;)

    Grahamiam, now that I've reread your turnlog, I see that the granary in Madrid was finished immediately after whipping the market, so you're right - all is fine. :) I first thought the city would have to regrow a couple of pop points without having the granary built, which would have been a Bad Thing.


    IT: Ugh, we are selling ivory to Rome for a meager 4gpt? Seeing that relations with Julius are dropping due to different religions, and how he just has adopted vassalage/theocracy, I don't think it's the best of ideas to give him access to war elephants! Unfortunately, I cannot cancel the deal yet, but I will as soon as I'm allowed to.

    I renegotiate our resource deals with Toku and Saladin to squeeze 3gpt more out of them. The extra 10% research bonus from a monastery in Barcelona won't do us much good at the moment, so I set it on building a lighthouse first instead to let it grow faster. Cordoba has nearly no hammers and cannot grow at the moment, so I whip the market there (which could have been done before already). Santiago is switched from building a galley to building a lighthouse, as it cannot grow without one and we don't really need galleys at the moment. And I think it's better to build galleys in cities that can grow on their own anyway, and to build the respective infrastructure in those which cannot. Last but not least, every city that isn't maxed already gets the "emphasize food" switch turned on. Growth means power!

    1210AD: Seville completes the monastery and starts a war elephant, just to be on the safe side. I also now realize that we have founded a religion, but don't have built the shrine yet! There's a scientist hired in Seville who gets fired immediately, and a priest is hired in Madrid instead.

    The Admiral has suggested going for great merchants, by the way. I guess there's no clear wrong or right regarding great people, but personally, I don't much like great merchants, especially not in the early game. Getting them to other large cities can be cumbersome and won't give you much money at this stage of the game as well. I much prefer great scientists to construct early academies - that gives you a science boost as well, but one which does not expire. Great prophets are also superior in my book, both for founding religions and for building the shrines, or even to merge them into your capital if they come early enough, as the 2 extra hammers and 5 extra gold are quite powerful in the beginning. Great engineers are better too, to rush critical wonders. The only great people that I like less than great merchants are great artists, which I save for golden ages most of the time. Great merchants can be better in the late game, giving you more money, but even then I rarely find the higher upkeep of caste system and the lost ability to whip not worth the effort - but YMMV. However, in this game we desperately need a great prophet first, so please make sure the priest remains in Madrid!

    Our missionary in Roman lands cannot spread our religion, as Julius had adopted Theocracy earlier, so I use him to scout his lands instead.

    1230AD: Our scouting missionary finds Montezuma, a Buddhist. We are actually up Monarchy, Code of Laws, and Alphabet on him! Unfortunately he is not willing to trade.

    1240AD: Civil Service comes in. We adopt Bureaucracy. I hate to trade away monopoly techs, especially if they allow new civics, but we desperately need to catch up. I sell Civil Service to Julius for Metal Casting, Calendar, and 10 gold. I also cancel the ivory deal. The rest of the AIs do not want to trade with us, so I decide to go for Paper (on the way to Liberalism) next - we need Free Religion to improve relations, and open up trading possibilities! This is debatable though: Iron Working to see if we have iron would be nice too, or Machinery to unlock maces to prepare against heathen attacks. Opinions?



    Cordoba will complete a settler in two turns that can found a city on the western tip of our landmass which will have marble, crabs, and horses in its radius - an archer is fortified there already. Another fishing village should be founded northeast at the fish (north of Santiago) as well.

    I expect that we will get attacked by a member of the Jewish coalition sooner or later, so I built another war elephant and an axeman in preparation. We might want to have a spear or two as well, but I think we will be safe against landings then.

    -Kylearan
     
  2. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Our empire:

     
  3. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

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    got it. Wee!!
     
  4. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

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    I got some problems. Whenever I try and open the save it crashes my comp. I can open other saves, so maybe some one else should play, or at least test the save.
     
  5. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    Opened fine, played a turn and all is still well.

    Didn't you have something of the same problem back in the beginning?

    Given that I think the Admiral is up!
     
  6. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    :bump:

    Call to quarters, Admiral.

    Roster check

    Admiral Kutzov - up
    Bede - up and got it See what I can do about improving the economy
    Whomp - and another town and killed some more barbarians.
    grahamiam - another town and almost Currency and rolled an Elephant
    Kylearan - set us up to destroy the viper's nest
    romeothemonk - sidelined by barfing computer
     
  7. Admiral Kutzov

    Admiral Kutzov Idiot Emeritus

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    got it. previously awol.
     
  8. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    AWOL is right....Fleet Week in NY ended Friday at 6:00AM ;)
     
  9. Admiral Kutzov

    Admiral Kutzov Idiot Emeritus

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    1300 - Zounds, we have no knights. No changes.

    1310 - lower science to 60%

    IT - Barb ax sighted SW of Hurrian. Meet Otto von Bismarck. Sell Civil Service and Code of Laws for Fuedalism, Iron, 10g.

    1320 - I know K really dislikes GM, but I do this anyway. Put 2 citizens into merchants in cordoba. this allows me to raise science to 70% at +1gpt.

    IT - Galley dead by barbs. paper in, start education (I'm gonna be a brain surgeon when I gets educated)

    1330 - too soon to trade paper; we have a monopoly

    1350 - Finish forge in Madrid, start LB

    IT - meet Lizzie, open the borders. Turn down a trade of ivory for spices.

    1360 - paper monopoly holds. we need to figure out how to get phil from Liz.

    1370 - Madrid finishes LB, starts another. Seville finished forge, starts CH. Salamanca founded, Hiawatha nowhere in sight? Salamance drops the gold to -16gpt. Dropping science to 60% get it back to +1 gpt.

    1380 - axe dead. Toledo rax to CH

    1390 - we still hold the monopoly on paper

    1400 - madrid finishes LB, leave the build decision for the next better player.

    We should probably revert back to slavery and rush some of my builds. Cordoba should pop a GM in 6. suggest we transport him to Saladin's continent and use him to explore inland. At an opportune moment, establish a trade route and crank the science. I started the GM cause Cordoba wasn't growing due to settler production and we'll need the money. Still need a city neaar the NE fish.

    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Warhorse_AD-1400.Civ4SavedGame
     
  10. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    More friends, more friends. :cool:

    Roster check


    Bede - up and got it
    Whomp - and another town and killed some more barbarians.
    grahamiam - another town and almost Currency and rolled an Elephant
    Kylearan - set us up to destroy the viper's nest
    romeothemonk - sidelined by barfing computer
    Admiral Kutzov - made more friends
     
  11. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Hi,

    That I dislike GMs is not really the problem here; I'm fine with everything if the majority of the team wants it. But I'd like to point out that this is complete :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:! We have FOUNDED a religion. It is 1400AD already, and we still have NO SHRINE! That's unbeliebably :smoke: in my opinion, but if this is what the majority wants, I'll play along happily: You know how I love crazy variants... :crazyeye:

    That will be a problem. Paper is too cheap to get anything with it via trading, so I guess we will have to research it ourselves after Education if we want to go for Liberalism. Do not trade Education away! It's expensive and gets researched later by the AIs usually, so holding on to it might win us the race to Liberalism.

    -Kylearan
     
  12. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

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    Ky brings out a nice point. Our next Great Person should be a priest. We need to fleece the masses out of their temple tax.
     
  13. Admiral Kutzov

    Admiral Kutzov Idiot Emeritus

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    Madrid is our only city that will pop a GP. Given our spiritual trait, we may want to go slavery for a few to pop CH and temples. then caste for a few to pop GS. Then back to HR.

    This is going to sound idiotic, but I started the GM to use as a scout more than anything else.
    agree

    @ Ky, I missed the fact that we don't have the shrine up. :blush:

    Liz and Otto are pretty dumb. Maybe at the right time we can get something for paper. Agree on not trading education.
     
  14. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Hi,

    Luckily we can be in slavery and HR at the same time. :)

    My vote would be not to overdo slavery - only pop-rush projects that are expensive and net us an immediate gain in happiness or (more important) commerce or science. Additionally, only pop-rush in cities that are low on hammers, and I'm not sure Madrid qualifies as such. My gut feeling says Madrid is better off building stuff on its own, maybe only rush a university there. I don't think temples are worth the whip except in real fishing villages, and most cities can do courthouses on their own too. But I have yet to do the exact math to find out...

    Regarding caste system, it can be a powerful tool to get great people. But, it's expensive compared to slavery, and you need a very large and very high food city to make it worth it. Happiness can be dealt with by building the globe theatre, but food might become a problem in our case. We have no city that can support 10+ specialists, and I don't think caste system is sensible with less - or what does the team think?

    If we want to use caste system in this game, I suggest waiting a bit until we have a city we could specifically prepare for that task, by hopefully having some flood plains and/or grassland around and irrigating them a lot. Cordoba could be a semi-good great people factory, but this would hurt our science which is our problem anyway right now.

    Now that's an innovative use for a GM. :lol: I suggest taking our missionary instead, who I think is finished scouting the Roman territory anyway.

    Hope so too, but it won't be anything expensive, or we have to add something else (which we don't have yet). Otto can be a very good friend, too - I'm curious to see if we make it to Liberalism in peace, and how diplomacy changes afterwards. :)

    -Kylearan
     
  15. Admiral Kutzov

    Admiral Kutzov Idiot Emeritus

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    It's the :beer:

    caveat - i usually play on prince or noble. I tend to spam specialists in whatever city can keep growing while running the specialists. I'm convinced that GE are the most useful specialist, but have no emphiric proof.

    Madrid is currently the only city with a temple. The GP needs to come from there. My bad for assuming we had a shrine since we were running a missionary.

    Ky, with regard to the GM, keep in mind you don't need open borders for it to wander around in other peoples lands. Or am I just totally whacked? :crazyeye:
     
  16. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    Turn 200 (1400 AD)
    Much fiddling with citizens gets us to Education in 12 @-3. Fire one merchant in Cordoba, rehire the priest at Madrid (5 turns on the prophet with the help of a scientist to boost the GPP). Start training a missionary in Madrid to bring the benefits of our religion to Salamanca but if the priests beat him there he can climb aboard a galley and go exploring.


    IBT

    Turn 201 (1410 AD)
    JC scores Divine Right and founds Islam in Neapolis and converts, but remains a Theocracy.
    Madrid finishes Hindu Missionary who scuttles off to the west to convert the Salamanders
    Santiago finishes Forge.

    Sorry Monte, offer something meaningful and maybe we will haggle



    The Military Historian bothers to point out to us that we are the Warhorses the Truly Pitiful but that our new friend Bismarck is the most powerful.



    This information impels me to do a little further investigation of the German and discern that Bismarck has no religion and remains a pagan, hence fertile ground for conversion, now I just need to figure out where he lives. His caravel came upon us from the east, so I am wagering he is somewhere to the west.

    IBT

    Turn 202 (1420 AD)
    Madrid starts building a Hindu Monastery. We will be switching religious civics in the not too distant future.

    IBT

    Turn 203 (1430 AD)
    Santiago starts building Hindu Monastery
    Seville has grown to 11
    Cordoba finishes Settler
    Santiago has grown to 9
    Hurrian has grown to 6
    Hurrian finishes Work Boat

    IBT

    Turn 204 (1440 AD)
    Hurrian starts training Galley
    Cordoba starts building Forge

    Bismarck has circumnavigated the globe so I trade him Paper for his World Map, Compass and 10g. The monopoly on Paper proves to be worth much more than originally thought for by combining it with a German-enhanced World Map we pick up several useful pieces of knowledge later.

    Madrid finishes Hindu Monastery
    Seville finishes Courthouse
    Cordoba has grown to 10
    Toledo has grown to 9

    IBT

    Turn 205 (1450 AD)
    Madrid starts training Hindu Missionary
    Seville starts building Hindu Temple
    Madrid finishes Hindu Missionary
    Chuang-Tzu (Great Prophet) born in Madrid :bounce:
    Barcelona finishes Forge
    Santiago finishes Hindu Monastery
    Hurrian has grown to 7

    IBT

    Turn 206 (1460 AD)
    Maps and Paper prove their worth.



    We have dyes available so Theatres will give a double happy whammy. The added cash lets me turn the heat up on Education to 1005 to bank beakers for Philosophy. We learn it on the last turn at a monopoly. We still need Philosophy for Liberalism and no one is willing to trade that one yet.



    The prophet from Madrid proves to be worth more than the two merchants in Cordoba as the income jumps to +20 and the science rate goes up more than the merchants beakers.

    Madrid starts training Maceman



    Madrid has grown to 12
    Cordoba has grown to 11
    Santiago finishes Galley

    IBT

    Turn 207 (1470 AD)
    Hinduism has spread to Salamanca and there is a workboat hanging out waiting for the borders to expand.
    Santiago starts training Galley
    Barcelona has grown to 10

    Toku comes calling and as he is still a hold out against Theocracy I agree and hope we can open our borders in the future and introduce him to "My Sweet Lord"


    Toledo finishes Courthouse

    IBT

    Turn 208 (1480 AD)
    Murcia founded on the eastern shore
    Toledo starts training Hindu Missionary
    Murcia starts building Granary
    Santiago starts training Work Boat for the Murcian fishing banks
    Seville finishes Hindu Temple and its happiness trouble goes away for another little while yet

    IBT

    Turn 209 (1490 AD)
    Seville starts building Theatre
    Cordoba starts building Theatre

    And Maps and Paper come through yet again...



    Barcelona and Hurrian start training Caravels for missionary hauling to Germany

    We learn Education :woohoo: We own it for now....

    Madrid finishes Maceman
    Santiago finishes Work Boat and it sets out for Murcia.
    Hurrian has grown to 8

    IBT

    Turn 210 (1500 AD)
    Santiago starts training Caravel for yet another in our peaceful invasion flotilla

    (AdmK, think you can handle a transport of missionaries instead of tanks ;) )

    Start researching Philosophy at 100%. We may need to deal Drama for cash to keep the heat on

    Madrid starts training Caravel

    We should train up missionaries to fill the caravels and try a peaceful invasion of Germany. It would be nice to have a Hindu bloc to counter the Jewish bloc which is starting to fall apart with JC's conversion to Islam. Canceling Open Borders with Lizzie should have minimal effect and may even convince Toku to open his borders to our missionaries.

    Iron is connected and I trained our first maceman. Might want to train a few more and maybe upgrade some archers to X-bows when we get a chance.

    Someone better versed in the care and feeding of specialists citizens need to take a look at this and recommend a course of action for the future. I am inclined to gen up some Great Scientists and put Acadamies down, or we can go the Merchant route but we need a plan, or we can pull a few more Prophets out of Madrid to get the production boost. I suppose Universities everywhere and Oxford in the capitol might help make that decision for us. (BTW, Adm, you are absolutely right about the Great Merchant's free pass across territory).


    Roster check:

    Whomp - up
    grahamiam - on deck
    Kylearan - set us up to destroy the viper's nest
    romeothemonk - sidelined by barfing computer
    Admiral Kutzov - made two new friends
    Bede - traded like a monkey on meth, again
     
  17. Whomp

    Whomp Keep Calm and Carry On Retired Moderator

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    :thumpsup: Bede. Nice improvement!

    OK I have it.

    I am weak in the area of GP's. I never know when to stop/slow growth other than when it's maxed out for happiness. I would think a scientist makes the most sense since we could use some academies since our since needs some improvement after a rough start. Merchants seem to be a better option when our friends get even bigger for a hard cash burn or mass upgrade.

    I'd appreciate some thoughts before I run with this tomorrow.
     
  18. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Hi,

    great trading, Bede! :goodjob: I don't think I've ever been able to put Paper to such good use. Only too bad your screenshots didn't show the updated worldmap... :p

    Trying to get open borders with Toku...interesting. It's hard, but it can be done. Do we have any negative modifiers with him already? If so, I think we can more or less forget it. If not, we should try to keep it that way, depending on the demands he makes. Forming a Hindu block would be nice indeed, and it would be fantastic if we could convert Otto! He can be a very good friend, and it's always nice to have the one with the biggest military in our block. :lol:

    Now that we know Education, I suggest interrupting most city builds to start universities at once. I'd even use the whip in medium-productive cities for these, maybe even in the capital, as the boost in science can be enormous, and we will be able to build Oxford sooner. Where should we build it, by the way? I don't know which of our cities will have the highest beaker output post-bureaucracy.

    Regarding great people, I'm not sure what to go for now. The longer the game has run, the less useful many of them become. Academies and super priest specialists for example have less turns to contribute their goodness to our empire. There will be a point of time where it might be better to use them for a golden age, or to discover a tech for us, but I'm never sure exactly when a game has reached that point.

    However, now that we have the shrine I don't think we should go for more great prophets. The 2 extra hammers and 5 extra gold aren't so hot in 1500AD, and once we are far enough in the tech tree, all they will offer to discover for us will be Divine Right, which is useless.

    An academy or two might still be worth it, though. A great engineer to rush a wonder with is nice, too. And now that we have the shrine, I wouldn't object getting cash from a trading mission from a great merchant. No, really. ;) Do they really ignore closed borders? Didn't know that; that would indeed be a nice bonus!

    -Kylearan
     
  19. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    The world as we know it.....

    The Thomas Friedman view



    The Gary Larsen view



    The Near Side view

     
  20. Admiral Kutzov

    Admiral Kutzov Idiot Emeritus

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    About the specialists, I usually run a city on scientists until I've got academies where I want them.

    If a city has just a enough surplus food to keep growing and support a specialist, I run an engineer. It may take a while, but eventually you pop a GE.

    Now, here's the flop. Ironworks will let you run 3 engineers. In my solo games, IW tends to get built in the capitol since its the most productive city. In this game, that won't be the case. I've haven't looked at the map, but somewhere with lots of mountains and food (if such a place exists)

    Do we have an FP?

    And just to really confuse things, do we have any shot at grabbing econ first?
     

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