MestreLion
Warlord
Last game i played i was confused (not to mention dissapointed and a bit frustrated) by the effects of the Spiral Minaret. When i read some posts here, i discovered that i was not alone: many users like me dont know exactly how the Spiral works. As both buildings (the Spiral and a religion Shrine) are "wonders that somehow get you gold via religion", many people (including me) compare them and quite often confuses them.
So, to (hopefully) end this debate, here is how the Spiral Minaret works:
Spiral Minaret
Sounds great, huh? But here are 2 major catches:
Just for comparison, heres how the Shine works (altought most of you already know):
Shrine (one for each religion)
So the Spiral its a very different building than the Shrine. But many people still compare them, and some state that the Spiral is more profitable than the Shrine because you can get 2 (or 3) gold per city, while the Shrine gives you only 1.
While the above is true, the Spiral is not more profitable than the Shrine, in both terms of investiment made (in hammers) and in terms of total gold generated. I'll talk about the total gold later, for now, let's do the maths on how much hammer investiment you need for each gold generated. I'll consider a group of 3 cities (where you can build only 1 Cathedral) that do not yet have the desirable religion (for faireness of comparison). This way we dont have to make any assumptions on number of cities, map size, etc. Values are for Normal speed:
Spiral Minaret
3 Missionaries x 40 hammers = 120
3 Temples x 80 hammers = 240
3 Monasteries x 60 hammers = 180
1 Cathedral x 300 hammers = 300
Total:
7
for 840 = 120 hammers per gold
If you dont count the Cathedral (too expensive), thats 6 gold for 540 hammers = 90 hammers per gold. As you must build the missionarie (and get no gold from it), thats the best hammers/gold ratio you can get.
Shrine
3 Missionaries x 40 hammers = 120
Total:
3 for 120 = 40 hammers per gold
That means that, at least "investiment-wise", the Shrine is three times more profitable than the Spiral Minaret.
Sure, one can argue that you can take the hammers investiment "for granted", as you may have already built those buildings for other reasons (culture, science, happiness, etc). Thus, given the same # of cities, the Spiral would yeild more total gold than the Shrine.
Thats true, but, to be fair, if you really want to look at the total gold generated, you have to factor in another Shrine advantage: the Spiral total gold is limited to the # of your cities, while the Shrine works in foreign cities as well. And i think its safe to assume that in any real-game situation you have at least a 3:1 foreign/domestic city ratio. That ratio is safe enough to disregard any "non-convertible" cities due to closed borders, theocracy, distance, etc.
Bottom line is: the Shrine will yield you more total then the Spiral, at a much cheaper hammers per gold cost.
As for the Great Prophet you must "waste" to build the Shrine (as some may argue), thats a very biased opinion: the Spiral needs no GP, ok, but it must be built! Thats 550 (half if you have stone) that we can't take for granted. Or we could simply use a Great Engineer to hurry it up and build it "for free" (or almost free). So, as for building costs, we can say we have a tie: both wonders are "free" once a Great Person is used.
The only real advantages of the Spiral Minaret over the Shrine i can think of are:
On the other hand, the Spiral have many disadvantages:
Apart from those, the Shrine has many other "side-effect" advantages:
So, imho, it makes no sense comparing the Spiral Minaret to the Shrine, because the Shrine is SO much better in so many different aspects. Thats why one is only a Wonder among so many others, while the other plays a key role in a major aspect of the game (Religion). I may be missing a key point here, so suggestions and comments are welcome. Also, as you can have both the a Shrine and the Spiral i really think that there's no need to debate on that, but i hope this post can help people like me that were once confused by how the Spiral works and how useful it is.
So, to (hopefully) end this debate, here is how the Spiral Minaret works:
Spiral Minaret
- Makes every religious building (Temples, Monasteries and Cathedrals) of your current state religion generate 1 per turn
- Generates 8
and 2 GPP (Great Prophet) per turn to the city where is built - Costs 550 to build (normal speed), double speed with stone
- Obsoletes with computers.
Sounds great, huh? But here are 2 major catches:
- The is NOT generated in the Spiral Minaret city or by the Spiral itself. Instead, the religious building themselves generate the gold in the city they are located. That also means that only your Temples, Monasteries and Cathedrals give you gold. Buildings from others civs are not affected, they dont generate gold neither for you or for them.
- If you dont have a state religion, the buildings will not generate any gold, thus voiding the Spiral's main effect.
Just for comparison, heres how the Shine works (altought most of you already know):
Shrine (one for each religion)
- Generates 1 per turn for each city (domestic or not) that has that religion (state or not). The gold is generated by the Shrine, in the Holy City
- Generates 4 and 2 GPP (Great Prophet) per turn to the city where is built
- Built for free, but you must use a Great Prophet, and it can only be built on a religion Holy City.
- Never obsoletes
So the Spiral its a very different building than the Shrine. But many people still compare them, and some state that the Spiral is more profitable than the Shrine because you can get 2 (or 3) gold per city, while the Shrine gives you only 1.
While the above is true, the Spiral is not more profitable than the Shrine, in both terms of investiment made (in hammers) and in terms of total gold generated. I'll talk about the total gold later, for now, let's do the maths on how much hammer investiment you need for each gold generated. I'll consider a group of 3 cities (where you can build only 1 Cathedral) that do not yet have the desirable religion (for faireness of comparison). This way we dont have to make any assumptions on number of cities, map size, etc. Values are for Normal speed:
Spiral Minaret
3 Missionaries x 40 hammers = 120
3 Temples x 80 hammers = 240
3 Monasteries x 60 hammers = 180
1 Cathedral x 300 hammers = 300
Total:
7
for 840 = 120 hammers per goldIf you dont count the Cathedral (too expensive), thats 6 gold for 540 hammers = 90 hammers per gold. As you must build the missionarie (and get no gold from it), thats the best hammers/gold ratio you can get.
Shrine
3 Missionaries x 40 hammers = 120
Total:
3
for 120 = 40 hammers per goldThat means that, at least "investiment-wise", the Shrine is three times more profitable than the Spiral Minaret.
Sure, one can argue that you can take the hammers investiment "for granted", as you may have already built those buildings for other reasons (culture, science, happiness, etc). Thus, given the same # of cities, the Spiral would yeild more total gold than the Shrine.
Thats true, but, to be fair, if you really want to look at the total gold generated, you have to factor in another Shrine advantage: the Spiral total gold is limited to the # of your cities, while the Shrine works in foreign cities as well. And i think its safe to assume that in any real-game situation you have at least a 3:1 foreign/domestic city ratio. That ratio is safe enough to disregard any "non-convertible" cities due to closed borders, theocracy, distance, etc.
Bottom line is: the Shrine will yield you more total
then the Spiral, at a much cheaper hammers per gold cost.As for the Great Prophet you must "waste" to build the Shrine (as some may argue), thats a very biased opinion: the Spiral needs no GP, ok, but it must be built! Thats 550
(half if you have stone) that we can't take for granted. Or we could simply use a Great Engineer to hurry it up and build it "for free" (or almost free). So, as for building costs, we can say we have a tie: both wonders are "free" once a Great Person is used.The only real advantages of the Spiral Minaret over the Shrine i can think of are:
- You can always build it, even if you dont own a Holy City.
- You can build it anywhere you want.
- It generates twice the culture and GPP of the Shrine
On the other hand, the Spiral have many disadvantages:
- It spreads the generated gold across multiple cities. So no market/grocer/bank benefit unless you build them on all cities. The Shrine concentrates all the gold in a single city, so you can build a single bank/grocer/market, and add a nice Wall Street there
- Obsoletes with Computers. Ok, Computers is an end-game tech. But it also "obsoletes" if you switch to Free Religion, a civc thats avaliable since Liberalism, which is very close to Divine Right in the tech tree. So, if you want to benefit from the Spiral Longer, you must postpone the use of a civic that may bring more bonuses to your empire than the Spiral itself. The Shrine never obsoletes, even if you use Free Religion.
- The cheapest building, the Monastery, can't be build after Scientific Method.
Apart from those, the Shrine has many other "side-effect" advantages:
- Can turn 3 citizens into priests. Great for GP farms to generate even more cash (when all merchants are used), or as a nice balance between hammers and gold. Thats even better if you have Ankgor Wat
- Spreads the religion (saving a few missionaries)
- Avaliable much sooner (in worst case scenario, toghether with Spiral)
- Last but not least, you can have 1 Shrine per Religion, as opposed to the Spiral thats tied to your current state religion.
So, imho, it makes no sense comparing the Spiral Minaret to the Shrine, because the Shrine is SO much better in so many different aspects. Thats why one is only a Wonder among so many others, while the other plays a key role in a major aspect of the game (Religion). I may be missing a key point here, so suggestions and comments are welcome. Also, as you can have both the a Shrine and the Spiral i really think that there's no need to debate on that, but i hope this post can help people like me that were once confused by how the Spiral works and how useful it is.
per religious building. Combining the two makes a strong synergy and then each religious building get 2 gold and 2 beakers. BtS strengthens this strategy even more with the Apostolic Palace, which if you have the religion it is dedicated to as your state religion gives 2 hammers per religious building.
. Building a monastery costing 60 hammers that gives 2 gold, 2 beakers, 2 hammers and 10% beakers and 2 culture (plus 5 more with Sistine Chapel) in a newly conquered city is a good build option.
. Of course that this makes the value in hammers of a GProphet that I pointed more like a roof that a normal value. And , of course, normally there are better and sooner ways of getting Prophet GPP: Henge and Oracle. And the Engineeer specialists are more dificult to get soon ( requires forge => MC ). All of this should be taken in accont...
