The Spread Culture Espionage Mission revealed

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by UncleJJ, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    My pleasure :lol:
    :hmm:.....:drool: (sorry for the excessive smilies - couldn't help myself)
     
  2. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    This is very interesting indeed..infact most helpfull tip I have seen in a while :goodjob:

    Especially if it spreads culture to surrounding tiles it is very usefull even in multiplayer.

    How can I test this? How can I see how much culture it adds to every tile in the BFC of an enemy city?
     
  3. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Emperor

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    Chipotle is your friend. You can query the absolute values of plot culture for tiles when running the game in debug mode.
     
  4. Genghis Dhan

    Genghis Dhan Chieftain

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    Many players using the Spread Culture mission expect it to affect the TC, but is doesn’t, it affects the CC instead. In fact it is the only way to increase the CC of a city when you do not control the city. But because it doesn’t affect the TC directly most players think it’s useless.

    The secret is that you need to use the Spread Culture mission and then capture the city. When it comes out of revolt that city then starts with whatever culture you managed to inject.

    --

    Excellent post. Thanks. Read it as I was trying to figure out why Spread Culture isn't showing up as a doable mission for me (it's listed, but no points and I can't click on it) in the game I'm in. Still not sure - I think you allude to a possible cause at one point, but I need to go back and read it again and see if I understand.

    A couple of points. I used the Spread Culture missions successfully once to flip border tiles - there was a resource I needed. I kept sending spies, kept doing the mission - doing missions repeatedly to the same city is a problem as it raises your detection rate, but I kept at it. And the rival culture's percentage of the border tile in question kept decreasing towards 50 percent, and mine increased, and when mine got past 50 percent, it became mine. I'm not denying your observation that the Spread Culture espionage points go to the city culture, but the city culture in turns does affect the tile culture. Thanks, BTW, for laying out a lot of the specifics about how culture works. It's one of those deep inner mechanics things of the game that aren't explained in any great detail in the instructions or Civilopedia. (Like trade routes.)

    I'm intrigued by the concept that every border culture, plus any culture sending spies to do the Spread Culture mission, are running what are effectively secret city culture point tabs that the current owner of the city can't see, but that come into play if the city is captured. Is there any way you can see or deduce what these are?

    Speaking of borders and culture, in my current game there was a critical oil resource located, as Oil so often is, right on the border. It fell into my territory and I began building a Fort on it to hold the point (there's another point for discussion - Forts hold the border, sort of - how do they do that? how do they interact with culture?) But I was too slow, the territory flipped to my neighbor, he built a Fort, and the territory seemed stubbornly his. I pumped culture into my two nearest cities, each of them reached the 300 point echelon (I'm playing Marathon, echelons are 30-300-3000-etc) but it didn't help. That single tile stayed on his side, and that was even before he finished the Fort. I gave up, wrote it off, and found Oil elsewhere. I did build Forts around the border to pin it where it was, so it would not deteriorate further. Later in the game I came back, though, and lo and behold, it had flipped to me. I was hesitant to build a well, figuring losing the Fort would weaken my grip on it, but leaving it alone a while later, I found the border had moved yet one more tile in my favor, and the workers had built the well (plus a new fort on the newly obtained tile.) Anyway, I was curious why the border moved, despite culture not seeming to affect it earlier; and how the whole Fort thing works.
     
  5. dirtyparrot

    dirtyparrot Upholding Brannigan's Law

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    It's only doable if you've got some culture in that city in the first place from one of your own border cities (i.e. not enough border pops to reach the city in question).
     
  6. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    AFAIK, culture is the only thing that affects borders. You need more culture in the tile than the other country has. There are bonuses for inner ring tiles and other complications.

    I never heard of forts having an impact on borders. So, I am curious as well.
     
  7. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Deity

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    Wow it's a long time since I saw this old thread. :lol:

    The point you make is now correct. The Spread Culture mission does now affect both TC and CC. But at the time of writing the statement was correct for the Bhruic Patch to 3.13. If you follow the posts in the thread (it is quite long and involved) you'll see that Patch 3.17 broke the Spread Culture mission making it essentially useless, although Dresden produced a patch to the patch that fixed the problem. Now under the most recent Patch 3.19 we have a spy mission that affects both CC and TC which is what you're referring to.

    I think with that ammendment most of the points in my old post are still true. Several people including r_rolo1 have taken my ideas to the ultimate extreme and created 3 Legendary cities using espionage as can be found in this game RR6 - I am Legend .
     
  8. Dazie

    Dazie Chieftain

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    I have a question about this mission. What technology is required to open it up for use?
     
  9. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    None. That is, besides Alphabet, that enables the build of the spy unit :D ( but if you WB spies in you can do it before alpha ... )
     
  10. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    If you're not seeing it as an option, don't forget -

     
  11. Dazie

    Dazie Chieftain

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    thanks, I totally forgot about that. <3
     
  12. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Actually that wording is not correct. You don't need to have that city on culture range of one of your cities ... you need to have atleast one culture point in the target city. Those are very diferent concepts, since the culture spreaded in a city acts as a culture mini-bomb and you can bridge to other cities in the core of a enemy empire by spreading culture in one of the border cities ( or you could had already had previous culture in there ... lost or gifted cities, for a example )

    Believe me, I have a little of experience on this ( see here and here ) ;)
     
  13. Dazie

    Dazie Chieftain

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    Your threads inspired me to try this strategy over the weekend. I played one level higher than I normally do (Prince) and I almost...ALMOST pulled it off. The reason I lost was because I failed to build enough in the way of a military, and because of my spy abuse, my diplomacy was in bad shape. But, I'll say the game was very entertaining.
     
  14. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    Good to know, r_rolo1. This is because the spy injects a *% as opposed to +integer, correct? ...and as we all should know 0 * any% is still 0.
     
  15. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Yup, getting this way is entertaining ... but it is exausting when the number of spies around gets high. In one point of those games we had more than 150 spies around ... and, because spies don't sort out by discount, you have to check discounts manually on all of them ( unless you send them in groups, where things are less bad ) ... I can't even imagine trying a thing like this in any map bigger than standart :/
    It is a way of seeing things ;) I haven't checked the code behind , but I would not be surprised if it was exactly that way
     
  16. madwheel

    madwheel Chieftain

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    How is a 8 year resurrection for a thread? Hopefully I get at least a view or two, haha. But I think this is a good thread and the best related to some questions I still have after reading this whole thread and searching a lot elsewhere (find tons of stuff for civ5 and 6 even when searching 'civ4' =/)

    1. Does a GA culture bomb effect TC directly? Or does it just accelerate gaining border lvls which then grows your TC after that point? If it does directly increase TC, does someone know how it does so? For instance, if you use a GA that gives you 4000 CC, does it give you 4000 TC in every tile the city owns currently, or 4000 in every tile it would control if there was no competition? Is there any tapering off of the amount of TC for outer rings vs inner rings?
    2. I understand that in 3.19, the spy spread culture mission affects TC, but I never saw an explanation of how much each mission increases your TC, or in which tiles. Is it in all the tiles the city touches with its current owner? Or is it just in tiles you would touch if you owned the city when the mission occurs? IE, if you had 100CC invested and ran another mission, would that mission only affect '3 rings' of tiles around the city for you? Since a mission should give you about 5% of the current CC, does it give all the tiles that same amount, or is it modified for each tile in some way?
    3. Are there any other ways to push back a civ's cultural borders besides a GA, spy or just capturing the city. I think not given all I have read and learned so far, but I wanted to check. I just have a situation in a game right now where both a GA and espionage mission seem so far away, and I'm already struggling to keep some key tiles over the capital city of a creative leader...
    Sorry if these are kind of involved for an old thread. Thanks in advance for any answers or help.
     
  17. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    ha..well, you can always just start you own thread.

    I don't know what TC and CC are, so you may want to define it, considering this is a very old thread that many are not familiar with or forgot. (they are not commonly used abbreviations here) I'm assuming TC means total culture.

    A GA bomb on standard is 4000 culture directly to a city's overall culture. How the city's culture impacts surrounding tiles is far more complex. Someone may be able to explain mathematically from the code. But if you are bombing a well established enemy city that is also receiving cultural pressure from nearby enemy cities, the impact on nearby tiles can be very minimal.

    I will say this..not sure your experience level..but these types of things you are worrying about here is extremely sub-optimal gameplay in the large scheme of things. If you are worried about a captured city's cultural pressure then kill that enemy or vassal him (if enemy is vassalized you will get all Big Fat Cross [BFC] back although revolt risk can be an issue). Putzing around with spy missions and GA bombs is distracting from far more important things.

    One benefit of a GA bomb is the captured city will come out of revolt immediately, so you can do what you will with it. Whipping it down and give to a vassal. But honestly, unless I'm gimmicking for a fast conquest victory, I'm probably not wasting a Great Artist on bombs. I'd rather have a golden age. Nor would I be trying to produce Great Artists (unless going for Culture Victory, ofc). Free one from Music is good for a golden age.

    hmm..reread something...not quite sure if the issue is a captured city or culture pressure on one of your cities from an neighbor's capital. If the latter, then the question is probably why you settled so close to a capital in the first place (creative or not - creative is not that big a deal) But yes, you should probably be killing that neighbor instead of worrying about tiles. It's really a pointless exercise.
     
  18. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Prince

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    Hey @lymond how can I link a specific post in a thread? It would be a little more elegant than me telling a person "go look at this post#." Please and Thanks!

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/plot-culture-mechanics.633767/#post-15392025
    See Kaitzilla's discussion of this topic in post #7.
    It (Tile culture) appears to be distributed across the rings in the same hierarchy as the bonus culture from border pops: more in the innermost rings, less in the outermost.

    Before BTS, apparently the way artist bombs worked was they would add the city culture and pop borders normally, and give a bonus of the city's current final cultural output x 20 to all tiles it was influencing. So you could get GA ready, pump your cultural slider to 100% and run all artists, and set off a cultural NUKE in one turn. There was a special game where the players abused this incredibly OP mechanics to flip entire civs out of existence and win a (I think domination victory) in an always peace game. I've been searching for a little bit and can't find it, think the leader was Asoka or Gandhi.

    I looked at Kaitzilla's thread here about it
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-complete-guide-to-espionage.638613/#post-15333611
    post #4
    and it's only mentioned about the City Culture being changed. I recall from watching a TMIT game that each time he ran the mission, more contested tiles would flip to him though, so there must be some mechanic to Plot (or Tile) Culture too. I would assume it's distributed by ring order as well, and the amount (I guess) is 5% of the total culture (AI's + yours) in the city center based on the reading of this. I can't find it in those words anyway though, so it's just an assumption.

    You could vassal the civ in question :p All tiles in your BFCs override vassal's control of that tile, regardless of the ratio of plot culture in the tile or ownership history of the city contesting it, as long as the vassal owns it right now.

    Unfortunately, outside what you've listed there isn't much more to be done that I know of about it except pump more cultural output from your pressuring city via buildings, slider, settled GP, etc.

    A reliable tactic is getting multiple cities of yours to pressure the tile the in question with their culture, if possible, so if you have cities near enough to expand their borders to those tiles, their plot output can help contribute to the war over the tile. If any are near enough to expand their 4th or 5th rings to that plot, you can try popping their borders to give some backup.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  19. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Each post has a # in the lower right. Just right click on that # and select "copy link address".
     
  20. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    I have not gotten around to testing it, but I'm 99% sure the spread culture mission adds tile culture (plot culture) to surrounding tiles too.

    I need to put the info in my guide.
    Might have to play a game in debugging mode to keep track of all the tile values directly.

    Thanks for reminding me about a 3rd use for spread culture mission.
     

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