The state of Industrial Zones and Great Engineers.

[Archon_Wing]

Industrial Zones seemed to have had been balanced around IZ stacking, and now they're just sort of there. I think they'r the second less built district besides entertainment complexes.

But let's look at this a bit more clearly then "muh factory stacking". Factories aren't even a thing until Industrialization, but what happens before it?

The adjancency bonus is not too bad. If you have a good hilly city, you can get +4 or +5 adjancency, but most cities will not qualify for this. And then.... you get stuck with the workshop. The workshop is a very expensive t1 building, costing 2 libraries which is ironic because it is supposed to help you build stuff faster. At 175 production, it gives you a measly 2 production, meaning it'll finally pull your production ahead after 88 turns after the thing finishes. So beyond this tiny boost, you're also paying 1 GPT for the luxury of a Great Engineer Point. Even the barracks at 80 production/1 production per turn does it faster. Plus it does other things. Why is the t1 industrial building being beaten by a multipurpose non-production structure? Oh sure, if you have a magic scenario where you spawn next to a brown CS and it doesn't get overrun, it'll work but I don't really see anything relying on pie in the sky things to be useful in a game like this.

So we dallied over to industrialization, and finally reach factories. And hey, if you can sacrifice some on the workshop, getting a single factory could maybe net you around 20'ish production (in optimal situations) Of course, it's a bit deceptive due to overlap not applying. But maybe you insist and have nothing better to do with your governors. You could probably see benefits within 20 turns. It also lets you build the Ruhr Valley, but that's not really a advantage either. And then we get slapped in the face with a power plant, much like most other t3 buildings, building them before the game ends is quite a struggle and even seeing a return on that within 20 turns seems.... Hint: You'll probably get more out of industrialization from the mine bonus.

But this has gotten discussed a lot anyways. And hey, IZs get you great engineers. But how many Great Engineers are actually useful? If the wonder building ones come up cool, that's nice. But then you have to sift through stuff like...

Triggers the Eureka moment for one random technology of the Modern era. Workshops provide +1 Culture Oh wow 1 culture! Also this is one of the ones that comes first so triggering something for the modern era?

Culture Bomb adjacent tiles when completing an Industrial Zone in any city. (I mean, it is some gold saved.... as convoluted as it is. Of course this requires you to build a new IZ when you needed the IZs to get great people)

This city provides +1 Appeal to any tile it owns. (This city? If it were across all cities I guess you could hurf durf some neighborhood scam. In reality, this might give you 2 extra seaside resorts and maybe a national park. Maybe.)

This district's regional buildings provide +1 Amenity. This district's regional buildings reach 3 tiles farther (Well, that depends on how many zoos you have)

Instantly builds Ancient and Medieval Walls in this city, (This is actually not too bad, but if we're justifying appeal with neighborhood gold, I would say this is actually bad since you woudn't be able to use limes on it-- and it's not like walls are expensive to begin with.) And if you were under attack, then I'm sure something like a Great General would help much more.)

I mean these aren't necessarily bad, but these aren't something I'd want over any other great person. And the Space people are kinda good though at this point with so many ways to launch to space, it just seems pretty overshadowed.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Maybe they should bring back a +x% production type bonus for buildings like the factory.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

The adjancency bonus is not too bad. If you have a good hilly city, you can get +4 or +5 adjancency, but most cities will not qualify for this...The workshop is a very expensive t1 building, costing 2 libraries which is ironic because it is supposed to help you build stuff faster. At 175 production, it gives you a measly 2 production, meaning it'll finally pull your production ahead after 88 turns after the thing finishes. So beyond this tiny boost, you're also paying 1 GPT for the luxury of a Great Engineer Point.

For me it's not about building stuff faster, it's about building the right stuff faster. I usually chop an IZ up in one or two cities I designate for encampment districts. The IZ can help to pump out stable/armory knights (+25%/+25% experience). This equation is not simply a "pull your production ahead after 88 turns after the thing finishes." It gives me something I can't have by any other means faster, as knights produced elsewhere won't have the +25%/+25% experience bonus.

*Add a military academy and you get another +25% bonus for your cav, tanks, or knight corps.

My .02 cents worth.

EDIT: Logic also valid for wonders not yet available for build due to lack of civic research.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I usually chop an IZ up in one or two cities I designate for encampment districts. The IZ can pump out stable/armory knights (+25%/+25% experience). This equation is not simply a "pull your production ahead after 88 turns after the thing finishes." It gives me something I can't have by any other means, as knights produced elsewhere won't have the +25%/+25% experience bonus.

Why not just chop out the Encampment and its buildings? I don't really see how the IZ adds to this, as you could just chop out the encampment buildings and then chop out extra units instead of building the IZ if you can't build an armory yet. I'm sure an extra knight even without the bonus would be much more effective in war than an IZ would. Also the city would have to grow to pop 4 just to have 2 zones. And even in those cases, I can't see how a workshop adds to this even if you make the IZ. Building a workshop is 1 less knight and the difference is even greater with cards. Just because it's sped up through chopping doesn't mean 175 production wasn't dumped onto it.

Maybe they should bring back a +x% production type bonus for buildings like the factory.

I think that should apply to more districts too. Right now, districts are far determined by quantity than quality.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Why not just chop out the Encampment and its buildings?

I like to chop that too. But sooner or later, if you're a warmonger like me, you run out of things to chop and need to put the stable/armory to use.

I don't really see how the IZ adds to this, as you could just chop out the encampment buildings and then chop out extra units instead of building the IZ if you can't build an armory yet

That's the thing. I don't want the extra units before the armory. I want to be able to build armory trained knights faster, consistently, and in perpetuity, without chopping (as I will have exhausted all the chops by then).

Also the city would have to grow to pop 4 just to have 2 zones. And even in those cases, I can't see how a workshop adds to this even if you make the IZ. Building a workshop is 1 less knight and the difference is even greater with cards.

An extra knight is often nice. I often times don't actually need an extra "green" (no experience bonus) knight and prefer to wait for the +25%/+25% stable/armory units.
I'm not saying the IZ is the end all, be all, of districts, I'm just saying it has a purpose. And if you can build it in anticipation of a new tech/wonder/hard build unit becoming available, it can help. I'm also saying a city with an encampment and IZ fit very well together. I'll often just build those two districts no matter the population of the city, pumping out knight after knight after knight after knight.

 

[Archon_Wing]

That's the thing. I don't want the extra units before the armory. I want to be able to build armory trained knights faster, consistently, and in perpetuity, without chopping (as I will have exhausted all the chops by then).

That's fine and all, but I'm not really sure how +2 production a turn contributes to this meaningfully. Note that the 88 turn thing refers to the workshop, not the IZ itself. But even considering that, all you're really doing is adding a bit more than 5 production to a city. This is about 2 mines, though they don't have to be worked.

I'm not saying the IZ is the end all, be all, of districts, I'm just saying it has a purpose. And if you can build it in anticipation of a new tech/wonder/hard build unit becoming available, it can help.

I think it has a purpose, but it's not particularly competitive against other choices in a lot of cases I think. And that's the other thing-- hard building later on just isn't that strong. For example, you could build a bunch of chariots, upgrade them, and then have knights with a extra promotion. Or you could build a commercial hub and get gold and a trade route which could have production as well.

Now wonders are sort of an interesting issue and if your land was production poor, a flat production bonus could help prep for the wonder-- of course, if the land was production poor, there wouldn't be a good adjacency bonus anyways unless you're Germany or Japan.

 

[UWHabs]

I'd concur. I find I want at least one, since usually I have a city with enough production and not a ton else to do, and to get that main factory for my 3-4 best cities is worth it. But after that, I'll only build it if I get a good adjacency for a tile, and even then, if you need to place it on a hill, is it really worth spending all those turns to replace a 4 hammer tile with a 3 hammer industrial zone?

And combined with the fact that you're just paying production for production, it's one of the rare cases where the "turns to pay it back" has a direct calculation, and that calculation is not good. If you get lucky with industrial city-states, then it can be a decent enough bonus, but since the extra bonus is now set to workshops and factories, it makes it a lot longer to pay off.

They really do need to add more T2/T3 bonuses to the factories at least, like they did to zoos. Maybe give factories/PP something like +1 production per district in the city? Or at least if workshops had the same production cost as the other T1 buildings, that would help a little.

 

[Archon_Wing]

you need to place it on a hill, is it really worth spending all those turns to replace a 4 hammer tile with a 3 hammer industrial zone?

I guess if you were so food poor and couldn't work all the hills, the IZ would provide production that doesn't cost population. As Germany, Hansas are great due to the easy adjacency with cheap cost and really helps food poor starts.... though Hansas don't get adjacency from mines anyways lol. And even in those cases I tend to have a lot of Hansas without buildings because they are so bad.

And combined with the fact that you're just paying production for production, it's one of the rare cases where the "turns to pay it back"

It's the ultimate catch-22 since cities that have trouble with production aren't ones that would have good adjacency to begin with, meaning that it really only helps cities that have production to begin with. And if your city is putting out 100 production, what's a couple more really going to do?

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I'm not a fan of the way the IZ and it's buildings are implemented, either, but with respect to the Workshop, it's production bonus is increased +100% for each Industrial City State you're Suzerain of. So that can impact the pay back period of the Workshop significantly.

There's a few different things that could be done here to make this more interesting. Some quick ideas:

• Have the Workshop give a bonus based on intact resources worked by the city. Say +1 for each Iron or Copper, with an alternative Stoneworks building that gives +1 for each Stone.
• Move the Workshop to a City Centre building, and delay Industrial Zones until Factories are available. Now the Factory is the T1 building, and you're not forced to buy a Workshop first.
• If the Factory is the T1 building, then the T2 building could be Manufacturing Plant that creates unique Luxuries based on the intact resources in that City. Basically, create a different specialty Luxury for every choppable resource, and now you have a reason to consider not chopping them. To keep this from generating too many Luxuries, maybe these specialty luxuries only benefit 2 cities instead of the normal 4.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I'm not a fan of the way the IZ and it's buildings are implemented, either, but with respect to the Workshop, it's production bonus is increased +100% for each Industrial City State you're Suzerain of. So that can impact the pay back period of the Workshop significantly.

Yea, though it doesn't apply to all forms of production IIRC. I guess they wanted to make encampments and IZ bonuses unique.

Move the Workshop to a City Centre building, and delay Industrial Zones until Factories are available. Now the Factory is the T1 building, and you're not forced to buy a Workshop first.

That would be sorta cool, though that'd probably hurt Germany a lot. I guess they could just have a zone with no buildings though. Or maybe Stoneworks could be the t1 building.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Yea, though it doesn't apply to all forms of production IIRC. I guess they wanted to make encampments and IZ bonuses unique.



That would be sorta cool, though that'd probably hurt Germany a lot. I guess they could just have a zone with no buildings though. Or maybe Stoneworks could be the t1 building.

Yea, though it doesn't apply to all forms of production IIRC. I guess they wanted to make encampments and IZ bonuses unique.



That would be sorta cool, though that'd probably hurt Germany a lot. I guess they could just have a zone with no buildings though. Or maybe Stoneworks could be the t1 building.

maybe Mint could come back as a specialized IZ building option too.

 

[row2infinity]

I always build 2 IZ + workshops for the eureka, and just assume the benefits production wise are actually worth it. meh

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Yea, though it doesn't apply to all forms of production IIRC. I guess they wanted to make encampments and IZ bonuses unique.

That's a good point. I expect that was an early game design decision that now, with the benefit of a couple of years of gameplay, could be changed.

Neither IZ's nor Encampments get built all that frequently by the best players, as far as I can tell. Having the City State bonuses for each apply to all production in that city would help boost both districts.

I always build 2 IZ + workshops for the eureka, and just assume the benefits production wise are actually worth it. meh

That's probably the best argument for putting up at least two IZs.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

That's fine and all, but I'm not really sure how +2 production a turn contributes to this meaningfully. Note that the 88 turn thing refers to the workshop, not the IZ itself. But even considering that, all you're really doing is adding a bit more than 5 production to a city. This is about 2 mines, though they don't have to be worked.

I often have cities that have no particular tactical point at present, so I devote them to a more strategic longer-term focus. Sure I could pump out a few horses or heavy chariots. But to what end? Take for instance my current game. The continent just goes on and on and on. Conquering my immediate neighbors sounds like a great idea and extra units would certainly help me achieve that end. But then I end up with a potential amenity deficit, and no one to trade with. So I build an IZ and encampment. The IZ has a +4 adjacency bonus and +2 workshop. That’s 2 grassland mines. If I happen to stumble on Kabul, I’ll immediately load it to 3/6 envoys ASAP. Adding a potential +4 more hammers. As knights are not yet available, and I have a core group of Nubian archers shredding China, I see no point in producing more green units, and prefer to wait for the right units (+25%/+25% stable/armory knights). Again, not the be all, end all of districts, but allows you to devote present production points towards things you do not, as yet, have access to. For me, it’s worth the investment.

Spoiler :

*The units on China front are the core of the army. Any other units I might produce outside the stable/armory/IZ/encampment would be strictly for garrison and/or making corps. Knights made @ the stable/armory/military academy, however, are quickly promotable and can become core units. The IZ helps me to make them faster.

Spoiler :

 

[eleven11]

I think if they reduced the cost of T3 buildings, increased the yield of the T3 buildings, reduced the cost of the T1-3 IZ buildings, or increased citizen production bonus.. IZs may just be worth it again.

If I am going to build lots of IZs I am probably going to invest envoys into industrial CS because why wouldn't I - free production bonus. It would also make sense for me to focus on getting large adjacency bonuses - which is pretty easy to do with IZ - and run the 100% adjacency bonus card. If I do all these things IZs are worth it. But that's the problem.. it takes a huge investment, not only in production, but in policy cards and envoys to make them worth it.

And they are even worse if you place the on a hill because you lose the tile bonus of a potential mine. They just don't make sense with the end-game in it's current state.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

For me it's not about building stuff faster, it's about building the right stuff faster. I usually chop an IZ up in one or two cities I designate for encampment districts. The IZ can help to pump out stable/armory knights (+25%/+25% experience). This equation is not simply a "pull your production ahead after 88 turns after the thing finishes." It gives me something I can't have by any other means faster, as knights produced elsewhere won't have the +25%/+25% experience bonus.

Or you can just faith buy knights and skip this altogether. I agree that the IZ is largely useless now with all of the new options at your disposal for getting instant production in R&F.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I often have cities that have no particular tactical point at present, so I devote them to a more strategic longer-term focus. Sure I could pump out a few horses or heavy chariots. But to what end? Take for instance my current game. The continent just goes on and on and on. Conquering my immediate neighbors sounds like a great idea and extra units would certainly help me achieve that end. But then I end up with a potential amenity deficit, and no one to trade with.

But an IZ does nothing to really help with trade or amenities either without specific CS's. Hubs and ECs do. And science would also help over the long run. An IZ does not further those goals besides making those districts easier to build but then the city has to grow bigger to accommodate those districts and you have to use even more amenities.

And that's my main point. It's almost better to just skip it and build the thing directly then to build an IZ that will help you build the thing slightly faster.

. As knights are not yet available

Well, that's why you build chariots. You're basically building knights when they get upgraded.

But I guess that's a symptom of a greater problem since being able to cheaply upgrade old units heavily devalues production.

I always build 2 IZ + workshops for the eureka,

I actually do this too sometimes. Sometimes by the point IZs are the cheapest because I don't have many of them and thus I can afford to do it. I'd rather capture though.

 

[ShakaKhan]

If industrial zone payoff/efficiency is a problem, then you've already hinted at a logical solution...

Hint: You'll probably get more out of industrialization from the mine bonus.

... make apprenticeship no longer provide +1 production from all mines, instead the workshop provides +1 production to all mines in its city. (You could take this one step further by removing the +1 mine production from industrialization and replacing it with a +1 mine production from factories, which also removes our current, rather silly, mentality of only putting industrial zones where they'd maximize affected cities without overlapping-- instead, you'd be putting "industrial zones" in your "industry centers")

I'm guessing the initial reaction to this would be that its too restrictive- now every city needs an industrial zone. But not necessarily- heavily forested cities have the lumber mill option, which we're currently almost completely disregarding because of Magnus and chopping strategies. This change would make players weigh short-term gain vs. long-term city utility in a city-by-city evaluation. Later technology allows you to plant forests which can be milled, adding further flexibility. In my opinion (and it's only that), it creates more of a situation where players need to evaluate the map on a case-by-case basis and make a decision rather than adhering to a simple "this strategy is always the best choice" mentality, which is something this game sorely needs.

I also like the change for role-playing reasons: I prefer the implementation of, say, the education technology better than that of the Apprenticeship. With Education, you've unlocked a way to increase your cities' research capacity, but not until after you've built the buildings- you need to work for it. I think this is more realistic than the instantaneous, empire-wide revolution.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I'm guessing the initial reaction to this would be that its too restrictive- now every city needs an industrial zone.

Well, not necessarily. Could just buff factories. And also lumber mills could be come a thing. It'd also need to come with further nerfs to chopping though.

 

[UWHabs]

If industrial zone payoff/efficiency is a problem, then you've already hinted at a logical solution...
... make apprenticeship no longer provide +1 production from all mines, instead the workshop provides +1 production to all mines in its city. (You could take this one step further by removing the +1 mine production from industrialization and replacing it with a +1 mine production from factories, which also removes our current, rather silly, mentality of only putting industrial zones where they'd maximize affected cities without overlapping-- instead, you'd be putting "industrial zones" in your "industry centers")

I'm guessing the initial reaction to this would be that its too restrictive- now every city needs an industrial zone. But not necessarily- heavily forested cities have the lumber mill option, which we're currently almost completely disregarding because of Magnus and chopping strategies. This change would make players weigh short-term gain vs. long-term city utility in a city-by-city evaluation. Later technology allows you to plant forests which can be milled, adding further flexibility. In my opinion (and it's only that), it creates more of a situation where players need to evaluate the map on a case-by-case basis and make a decision rather than adhering to a simple "this strategy is always the best choice" mentality, which is something this game sorely needs.

I also like the change for role-playing reasons: I prefer the implementation of, say, the education technology better than that of the Apprenticeship. With Education, you've unlocked a way to increase your cities' research capacity, but not until after you've built the buildings- you need to work for it. I think this is more realistic than the instantaneous, empire-wide revolution.

Nice, although it does become weird that mines now become the only tile improvement that only gets help by buildings, and not just through technology. I think I'd probably still want to keep one of the bonuses just by tech, but certainly doing that would certainly make you much more need to get IZ in your industrial heartland.