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The Story in Iran

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by egroen, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. Mr. Dictator

    Mr. Dictator A Chain-Smoking Fox

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    a democratic, secular iran with nukes would probably be a good thing, providing a counterweight to israel, or in the best scenario, using their equal strength and similiar ideas to spread democracy throughout the middleast.
     
  2. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    I don't have any personal agenda vis-a-vis Iran, except for sympathy with its people and contempt for its current leaders, and though I'm not omniscient, I don't consider myself clueless about these issues either.

    However, I simply interpreted your post to mean that "Iran can not be pro-western if it has nuclear weapons. Period."

    Exactly. Which is my point, more or less.

    That is a possibility. And ideally, I would consider any western country that insists so to be evil, power hungry and arrogant. And stupid, as it will needlessly upset Iranians.

    Realpolitikally however, I can of course see that countries like the US and Britain does not want an Iran with nukes - even a friendly Iran, as it will diminish their relative power. Just as I imagine there are some unseen, almost invisible, pressure against any desire from i.e. Germany, Brazil or Italy to acquire nuclear weapons.

    One exception though: Whether Iran is democratic or not, I will be overwhelmingly against an unstable Iran with nukes. My comments in this thread assumes that a democratic Iran is relatively peaceful and stable.

    Admittedly, it is nothing, but my attempt at explaining my idea of "the West" and "Western culture", but if we are going to discuss this I would appreciate it if you would bother to read it.

    When countries share many of the same values, they will also share many interests on the international stage. As such, a country with similar values as the West would, in general, support, or at least accept, a Western dominated world.

    However, from what I get out of this last paragraph, it seems almost like you are saying that being pro-Western means that one has to support the USA in almost every project it undertakes. If so, then I, and most people I consider Western, are not pro-Western. As such, I don't accept your definition (as I have currently understood it) of pro-Western.

    You tell me. :)
     
  3. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    I don't even think it has to be due to a secret jealousy or whatever. I think it might just be that Western powers expect a friendly Iran to give up nuclear ambitions virtually as a given. It's like saying "We've been asking the Islamists to do this and they refused. Since you're friendly with us, you're going to do it, right?". And the only rationale I can think of for that, which seems almost certain to me from the rhetoric, is to show that their power and influence have prevailed or to see their cause validated.

    Again, I don't know if this follows. In the first place, having similar values as the West is a difficult thing to say for a Middle Eastern country. Also, if a democratic Iran is not pro-Western corporations, it might very well be seen as not conforming to Western values (e.g. prizing free trade and etc).

    In any case, I don't know why a country that shares some Western values would necessarily like a Western-dominated world. It's not like the West is consistent with its values anyway. So I think it's possible to like Western values but dislike the West.

    I didn't bring up the USA. I only said that to be pro-Western a state has to have interests that are aligned with the West. And I think this almost invariably means opening up to Western corporations, something that some democratic states have historically been unwilling to do and were punished for it.
     
  4. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    Well, to be fair, even I would at least want a suddenly democratic Iran to at least delay their nuclear programme a few years, just to get a feel for whether the country will remain stable.

    And of course, countries can ask Iran to abandon its nuclear programme, and promise some lucrative deals to sweeten the pill, but they to force it would be quite arrogant, and stupid.

    If you could have a look at my previous post, could you tell me which of the values I listed there would be difficult for Iran? Or tell me some values you consider Western that would be difficult for them?

    And what exactly does pro-Western corporations mean? I don't expect Iran to not want free trade - in the same state as Western countries. I.e. they may perfectly well put import tolls on certain goods to protect their industries, just look Western countries. And they may perfectly well protect their oil by putting heavy taxes on any oil companies working there.

    Well, with a Western-dominated world, I was thinking of the fact that Western countries at least talk about (and sometimes act) to protect and spread human rights and other values that they share. Any country sharing those values would prefer such a world, compared to one dominated by countries less concerned about being "nice guys" (i.e. Russia or China for instance).

    The punishing has mostly been at the behest of the USA during recent history I would say, that's why I mentioned it. I can't remember any instances of Sweden or Germany punishing a country for not letting their companies do as they please.

    Anyway, it's not like Exxon can come and do what it wants in Norway, and they could surely suggest some "improvements" to Norwegian legislation regarding the oil businesses, but that doesn't mean that Norway isn't pro-West.

    Or maybe I'm not quite sure what you put into "opening up to Western corporations"...
     
  5. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Then I'm not sure you're familiar with the modern history of the Middle East. Western corporations have been keen on carving up the Middle East, especially when we're talking about oil (something that Iran has a lot of). And it's not just "at the behest of the USA". The British did a lot of that themselves too, especially in and around Iran (it's just that these days the USA has been hogging all the opportunities, having unmatched power-projection capabilities - but even then don't tell me the British, for one, haven't been trying to get a slice of the pie). And these corporations wield substantial influence in their parent countries, and consequently the efforts of their victims to resist such overtures are often complicated by government-level pressure and intervention.

    All this is done under the banner of free trade. As you should know, free trade is not all good.

    And of course this is not to say that Western countries are necessarily pro-free trade when it comes to their own industries. Neither does it mean they open up to each others' corporations freely. I'm not sure why you have this conception, as your example of Norway seems to show, that just because they expect something of others they expect it of themselves too. I told you the West isn't exactly consistent. Indeed a lot of what the individual Western countries do can be said to be not pro-Western, if their rhetoric towards other parts of the world were to be applied to themselves.
     
  6. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    From BBC

    that's the end of that.
     
  7. Karalysia

    Karalysia Deity

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    I doubt it.
     
  8. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    There's still Mousavi.
     
  9. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    Man, I hate to break this to you, but Cyrus the Great's cylinder being some sort of human rights' charter is just a scam.
    Check out this post and related thread for more info on the topic.

    Apart from that, I lend all my moral support for the cause of your countrymen, fwiw. They deserve to succeed.
     
  10. egroen

    egroen Her Grace

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    He was 4th in the election.

    Another Iranian foreign diplomat just quit on the regime:
    http://persian2english.com/?p=5062

    Thanks... I'll have to look at that later (articles I read listed it as such)! Though it does not change the fact I question the Regime's motives for trying to get their hands on it, considering their hostility towards him.
     
  11. egroen

    egroen Her Grace

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