The Supremes Open The Door To A Theocratic America?

[BuckeyeJim]

Sorry, BJ, but I missed where any of that is forbidden in the USA.

Tough luck if you're not Amish and want to use your money to go to a private school that reflects your beliefs eh? The Amish exist as a special class, with special privileges that citizens like me cannot obtain. I must support the public school system, and only then can I send my kid to the private school.

 

[JollyRoger]

Tough luck if you're not Amish and want to use your money to go to a private school that reflects your beliefs eh?

What's the tough luck? Nothing is preventing me from spending my own money on a private school. I have no problem with stamping out the Amish exemption, if that offends your delicate sensibilities.

 

[Ajidica]

What can you possibly find so objectionable about the curriculum in the public school system? With parental letters a student can get out of the sex ed part of the Health course, the student doesn't have to take Biology, they can take Physical Science or ecological biology, and so on. Is the problem that your child may be exposed to contrary points of view?
If you have a problem with that, tough nuggets. The state already provides bussing for private schools in most cases and subsidizes other programs. What more do you want?

If public schools systems were on a 'pay per use' system like porn on cable, they would be far, far worse then what they are now and make America the laughingstock of the world as we quickly fail at the few things we are good at.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Tough luck if you're not Amish and want to use your money to go to a private school that reflects your beliefs eh? The Amish exist as a special class, with special privileges that citizens like me cannot obtain. I must support the public school system, and only then can I send my kid to the private school.

Are you claiming that Amish don't pay taxes which go to public schools like everybody else does? That public taxes pay for their own private schools?

Got a source like this one?

http://amishbuggy.tripod.com/amishschools.htm

Amish schools accept no local or government funds to support their schools even though the Amish pay the same taxes as the English. The community supports the school.

Late 1980's costs in Lancaster County of Amish versus public schools. Annual per pupil cost of instruction: Amish $200 Public $3,445
Sq ft construction of new school: Amish $18 Public $95

 

[MobBoss]

The Republicans and religious right would like it if America was (even more of a) theocracy

Uhm. No.

And a return to segregated schools - this time based on religious beliefs instead of directly on race.

Uhm. No.

was ?

How come a Christian scientist can deny their dying child simple life saving appendix operation on the grounds of religon then ? Law enforcement brought up manslaughter charges which were dismissed ?

why ?

To my knowledge, almost every case of this is prosecuted for child endangerment or manslaughter. Just because charges may (or may not - you didnt provide a link) have been dropped in a single instance proves nothing.

 

[JollyRoger]

The Republicans and religious right would like it if America was (even more of a) theocracy

Are you kidding? If Jesus returned, he would have good odds of ending up detained at GITMO.

 

[useless]

Uhm. No.

Actually, yes it is.

Are you kidding? If Jesus returned, he would have good odds of ending up detained at GITMO.

Indeed, since he isn't white.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

few people in the GOP want a Theocracy, the Constitution party are the Theocrats.

 

[BuckeyeJim]

Are you claiming that Amish don't pay taxes which go to public schools like everybody else does? That public taxes pay for their own private schools?

Got a source like this one?

http://amishbuggy.tripod.com/amishschools.htm

The Amish do not pay social security taxes, unemployment taxes, or taxes on social welfare. Taxes are not applied to things that they do not believe in. So why should taxes be applied to people for things that they don't believe in and do not wish to benefit from? Like public schools? If you don't believe in the system, if you don't wish to use the service it provides, why should you be forced to support it? Especially when it hampers your ability to live your life as you so desire?

 

[JollyRoger]

The Amish do not pay social security taxes, unemployment taxes, or taxes on social welfare.

Property taxes fund the schools though, BJ.

 

[GhostWriter16]

few people in the GOP want a Theocracy, the Constitution party are the Theocrats.

Are they? I didn't get that impression, though I know nothing about it.

As for the GOP wanting theocracy, depends how you define theocracy. Does the GOP want Christianity and Christian values in the government? Not all do, but there are a lot who do (I'm not saying this is good or bad necessarily, just pointing it out.) Do they want to force people to follow Christianity? Not really.

 

[JollyRoger]

Do they want to force people to follow Christianity? Not really.

Christianity is too anti-capitalism for them to want to follow it themselves, much less make the rest of us follow it.

 

[.Shane.]

Moderator Action: Thread cleaned up of off-topic, inflammatory post. Please keep it respectable. Thanks.

 

[onedreamer]

I am appalled that conservative states are deliberately destroying the separation of church[...]

Just a little FYI, but God is in your National Anthem.

 

[classical_hero]

There is no doubt that many of our founding fathers led very religious lives. But most of them had the common sense to keep religion out of government, because they understood that governments should be secular instead of theocratic.

What they did was keep government out of religion, meaning that government does not favour nor deny any particular religion and that all religions can have access to money.

 

[Bill3000]

What they did was keep government out of religion, meaning that government does not favour nor deny any particular religion and that all religions can have access to money.

Look, if you're just going to be ignoring posts which refute your points, you shouldn't be posting in the first place.

The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another.

So why should taxes be applied to people for things that they don't believe in and do not wish to benefit from? Like public schools? If you don't believe in the system, if you don't wish to use the service it provides, why should you be forced to support it?

Free rider problem, as education is a public good. Education provides external benefits - it does not provide only direct benefits for the students, but it creates more informed voters, safer communities, and more productive citizens. They are forced to support public education for the same reason they are forced to support public defense. This is why public education is not just funded by those with children. This is much like the reason why we must pay for defense, including those who do not agree with it.

 

[classical_hero]

Well it is not like the courts have ever over stepped their mark. The most famous one is the Dred Scott case. Also there is Plessy v Ferguson.

 

[Bill3000]

Well it is not like the courts have ever over stepped their mark. The most famous one is the Dred Scott case. Also there is Plessy v Ferguson.

You're not even an American citizen, dude, so why on earth are you even bothering with this lame counterpoint?


Moderator Action: Warned for trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[BuckeyeJim]

Property taxes fund the schools though, BJ. - JollyRoger

And?

Free rider problem, as education is a public good. Education provides external benefits - it does not provide only direct benefits for the students, but it creates more informed voters, safer communities, and more productive citizens. They are forced to support public education for the same reason they are forced to support public defense. This is why public education is not just funded by those with children. This is much like the reason why we must pay for defense, including those who do not agree with it.

You can say this about any government program. What's more, is that you can say it without examining any mutually exclusive alternatives. "The government program exists, therefore it is good, and therefore everyone has to participate in it." But this, of course, is merely theoretical. I object to the idea that all public schools provide the public benefit that you speak of. Especially in neighborhoods in Columbus where dropout rates are 30%, where crime in the schools is rampant, and where drugs are more common than A's. Maybe if there was a financially attainable alternative, parents who care about their students education could remove their kids from that disastrous and negative environment and provide them a place where the can be a better informed citizen, a place that is safer, that won't exude the same influence to fall into a life of crime as a public school, and maybe they'll end up as more productive citizens. There's not a lot of productivity coming out of the high schools in Nellie, Ohio or the Columbus city schools. Social security, social welfare, and unemployment provide external goods just like public education. Medicaid and medicare provide external goods. These programs keep people healthy and fed, so why should the Amish ride free while the rest of us support these programs that provide public external goods?

These programs are not like defense. Defense is squarely written in stone into the constitution. Public education is a local issue that varies widely from one locality to another, and wasn't even a federal issue until the 70's.

The Amish are forced to support public education because it doesn't stand against their religious beliefs. You can bet that if it did, they wouldn't have to support it.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The Amish are forced to support public education because it doesn't stand against their religious beliefs. You can bet that if it did, they wouldn't have to support it.

That really has nothing to do with it. This is just an absurd red herring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

In 1961, the United States Internal Revenue Service announced that since the Amish refuse Social Security benefits and have a religious objection to insurance, they need not pay these taxes. In 1965, this policy was codified into law. As a result of many Amish not paying Social Security taxes, people often falsely believe Amish don't pay any taxes. In general, Amish pay all applicable taxes.

Nobody is exempt from paying taxes based on whether or not it is against their religious beliefs. If that were true, there would be a lot more members of pacifist religions just so they wouldn't have to support American warmongering.