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The thing i hate about diplo victory

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by jasper, Jan 21, 2021.

  1. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

    Sep 19, 2014
    It's possible to win without aid requests. You can get:
    • 7 points from wonders;
    • 2 points from the tech/civic trees;
    • 8-10 points from pre-modern congresses (before the diplo vote is available). How many congresses you will get before the modern era vary depending on the difficulty. On deity, you'll get 4 congresses, on immortal you will get 4 in most games, but you might still get 5, on emperor or lower you'll get 5 (I'm not sure if it's possible to get 6 on lower difficulties);
    • 5 points from the first post-modern congress.
    So you can get up to 22 points by the first post-modern congress on higher difficulties without aid requests, 24 on lower difficulties (30 turns later, though). On lower difficulties, you can win even if the AI all vote against you in the diplo vote (10+7+2+1), but you can't afford to lose even a single point. On higher difficulties, you need to prevent the AI from voting against you, so you can win the diplo vote. You accomplish that by delaying the construction of the Statue of Liberty into the diplo vote, so you don't trigger the AI into thinking you're winning. If you do that, you can lose two points and still win. If you delay the statue of liberty in lower difficulties, you can lose 4 points and still win. You can skip the statue entirely if you don't lose any point.
    The Civs 6 and Josephias like this.
  2. The Civs 6

    The Civs 6 King

    May 27, 2020
    Nice breakdown. Don't take this sarcasm as directed at you - but geez, what a fun way to win a 4x game!
  3. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Deity

    Aug 13, 2002
    Calgary, Canada
    I like the Diploma Victory... but I like to play Canada. Then I am playing to see how quickly I can do it....
  4. anonxanemone

    anonxanemone Warlord

    Sep 19, 2020
    I'm not a big fan of the point system. My re-imagining of a diplomatic victory for future iterations of the series is to have a rank system after meeting all of the civilizations. Depending on how many turns(?) you stay on top of the literal diplomatic leaderboard by doing favors, brokering peace deals, environmentalism... victory is achieved! The idea is still half baked though so more time in the brainstorming oven.
    Time Tested and Josephias like this.
  5. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Warlord

    Sep 30, 2020
    Coming a little late to the party, but I agree with those who have said the problem with the Congress is that it's too much like a lottery (and/or too gamey, if you know how the AI will always vote). I'd love to see it revamped in the future, or for the next game, by having some combination of the following: (i) ability to spend favor to put up certain resolutions, instead of having it be random; (ii) ability to spend favor in advance to get knowledge on how other civs will vote (can have it reduced or eliminated for friends, allies); (iii) ability to spend favor and/or other currency to influence voting by other civs; (iv) ability to punish friends/allies who don't vote the way you request (maybe have it be a negative favor, additional grievances, or pulling aid or something). That would make it much more interactive with the other civs and really incentivize using diplomatic capital as a means to push your agenda.
  6. Francel

    Francel Madam Secretary

    Sep 19, 2018
    I made a suggestion previously as to how diplomatic victory could be improved, and it didn't seem to resonate with many people. Well, it's been awhile so I'll promulgate it once more.

    Major problem, as highlighted above by Vargas, is that it's too "gamey" - you can easily win most votes (the AI does not seem to even compete for a lot of them, such as the culture bomb one), guess the winning choice, or, worst of all, reroll until you get it right. You don't even have to play in an especially "diplomatic" manner (although at least now you can't conquer enemy capitals on a whim).

    I don't mind having the three wonders in the game, but really the emphasis should be on playing a "diplomatic style" - progressing towards diplomatic victory by doing things like influencing city-states, liberating cities, earning diplomatic favor, maintaining peace, forging alliances, protecting the environment, and yes, even aid requests could be a factor.

    Here's how I think it could work within the existing framework. At the start of a new era, three diplomatic victory points are awarded to the winner of a "secret" objective that was live in the previous era. You wouldn't know what the secret objective is, so you have to play all-around diplomatically. The loser or losers could even have a point or points deducted.

    For example, at the start of a new era, you could receive points for being the suzerain of the most city-states at any one time during the previous era.

    Proposed changes:

    New ways to gain points
    1 point for winning both resolutions in the WC (No more voting to give or remove points)
    1 point for liberating a city-state for the first time
    3 points for resurrecting a defeated civilization for the first time
    6 points for building specific wonders (2 Mahabodi, 1 PP, 3 SoL)
    1 point for winning an aid competition

    New ways to lose points
    -1 point for razing a small city (Population of 5 or lower)
    -2 points for razing a medium city (Population of 5-10)
    -3 points for razing a large city (Higher than 10)
    -1 point for capturing an original capital city
    -2 points for eliminating a civilization
    -4 points for being first to use nuclear weapons offensively
    -1 point for being the largest emitter of CO2 when sea levels rise
    -1 point for having caused the most deforestation when sea levels rise

    Each era, 3 points awarded to the person who performed best in won of these "secret" objectives in the prior era:
    -Generated the most diplomatic favor
    -Placed the most envoys
    -Suzerain of the most city states at any one time
    -Formed the most alliances with another civilization
    -Liberated the most cities versus captured the most cities
    -Harvested the fewest resources
    -Generated the least pollution (in terms of emissions)
    -Never declared war on a city-state or rival civilization
    -Made improvements instead of pillaging
    -Initiated the fewest combats
    -Planted the most trees and/or captured the most carbon
    (Obviously some of these would be era gated, and there might not always be a winner)

    An additional 1 point gained for the top 25%.
    -2 points for the last place finisher
    -1 point for the bottom 25%

    Takeaway - It would be much harder to "game" since you would more or less be incentivized to play in a broadly diplomatic style. You would have to go back potentially an entire era to game the system and the objective might change. Furthermore, gameplay would be more interesting in my eyes because you would have to debate several tradeoffs. (ie, is it worth chopping these woods or razing this city?).

    (If you are a modder and would be interested in making something like this, I'd love to play it.)
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
    Mr. Salt and Time Tested like this.
  7. Earl of Pembroke

    Earl of Pembroke Chieftain

    Dec 3, 2020
    I always turn it off too. It's not just "not enjoyable" in it of itself, if you are going for another victory type and accidentally stumble into a diplomatic victory, it feels like you were robbed!
  8. FinalDoomsday

    FinalDoomsday Prince

    Sep 6, 2007
    Maldon, Essex
    I'd rather have 4 solid victory conditions that have depth to them in Civ VII and avoid the temptation to add more through expansions instead add mechanics that interact with the current victories in interesting ways.
  9. Dotsworthy

    Dotsworthy Warlord

    Jul 1, 2019
    The biggest problem with the Diplo victory is the inertia of it.

    You can build wonders that can move you closer to a victory, but for the most part it's waiting for the magic RNG genie to throw up an aid request or some easy voting topics. The voting can get too predictable after a while. The AI will always vote to boost city center buildings and reduce cost of units, it will also ban a resource or great person. Although while people complain about the voting aspect of the Congress, I do like the randomness of the resolutions.

    It applies to aid request and I believe military emergencies but not liberating cities from invaders or religious emergences. It seems odd that liberating a city from occupied rule is not considered a diplomatic action, while taking all a civs cities bar their capital is fine and dandy.

    It's not far away from being a super fun victory type, but I personally think it should be tied much closer to emergencies and actively pursuing diplomatic actions instead of passively voting and building pretty wonders.

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