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The Third World War 1989

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by AnthonyBoscia, Dec 20, 2014.

  1. Lionic

    Lionic King

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    That has happened to me while I played Western Germany I think. Some of my f(r)iends sneak attacked Romania, I had to join in the fight and managed to take back a city from them. On the next turn all f(r)iends including the one that originally provoked the conflict terminated their ROP with me for being aggressive towards Romania. Stupid, stupid Firaxis programming.

    There are terrain types that forbid the road building.

    Has anyone tried 1989 with Flintlock's fixes? According to the release notes he had managed to fix artillery usage.
     
  2. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Emperor

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    Thanks for the update, vmxa. Real quick: As soon as possible I'm going to post a new biq that removes the guerillas that is the source of so much grief. Down the road yes I want to increase resources, especially oil. There will still be a shortage of Berlin and Israel though. As Lionic said, landmark terrain can't have roads. The terrain type is preceded by a + sign.
     
  3. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

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    Ah, I wondered what the + stood for, now I know.

    I finally realized I had two Berlin resources, so I made the typical over priced deal for oil. Two resources and a ton of money for only oil. I am not far now from Sofia, so will have my own soon.

    I have my deals set to not be renegotiated. So I never end them, only the AI does or somehow trade routes are lost. I figure we are locked allies, so why do I need to squeeze more from them and maybe hurt their war effort.

    The AI has no thought process, it only wants what it wants. It slowed down my advance to lose oil for a number of turns. That is not good for my allies. In Canada's case the oil was bringing in nothing. Currently Canada is only polite, not gracious. Wonder where that is going lead. I know how to invade and they do not, so ....
     
  4. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

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    Still lost on the means to get my special forces to appear. I found I have a marine commando, who can detect invis units. I seem to not be able to build them. Pedia says that or implies I can create the GR wonder Nato Prep,
    though this unit does not have any action to do it. I am not having any issues that I know of with the invis as I kill some and now can see with one unit. The AI is all over my land and kills some and they are not strong enough to
    attack my towns.
     
  5. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Emperor

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    The current plan for the biq update is to have special forces units set as invisible but with no hidden nationality. Special forces and certain other infantry units will have detect invisible but they will be limited. Neutral nations like the Swedes, Romanians, etc. will have detect invisible on their regular infantry to avoid the sub bug. Anti-communist guerilla is now only spawned by special forces in combat. Anti-imperialist guerilla is eliminated. Mutual protection pacts are being eliminated. Feedback welcome, after which it gets posted as an attachment on the first post.
     
  6. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

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    Sounds like those changes should solve invis issues. I have not seen any wars started by units running into invis units. That could be simply that the only ones in my land are Soviets units or at least using the same color, when detected. Anyway the AI, at least the Soviets, seem to love them as the drop a few off every turn. This is detrimental to them as they are pretty much useless. They win an occasional fight vs other civs, but I hit them with tanks, not infantry. Those shields could be use on better units and maybe accomplish something. I am not so sure that the scuds are a much better use of shields.

    The highest count of invis I have encountered in a turn so far is 30. The most scuds I have seen in a turn is about the same and neither got them anywhere, just some minor damage. As large as unit counts are getting for French and Nato, the Soviets block needs kills not damage. AI, including Nato, will send damage units on attack and lose them, so I guess that is some consolation.
     
  7. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

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    I kill a bunch of invis by Szczecin, going to have to ask a friend how she pronounces that one. Down to 3 now.
    Got hit by a bunch of missiles and I spot 35 units (mostly launchers) next to my border. I managed to kill 27.
    There are small bunches here and there.

    Captured Craiova and now I am adjacent Sofia, yahoo. I cleared the 8 remaining launchers near Szczecin. Of course USA went to war now with Yugoslavia. I am not at war as they did not trigger the
    Alliance, yet.

    Yugoslavia DOW me, so I took the nearest town. Bomb down a number of units on mountains for my friends to kill.

    I discovered that I have a few paratroopers that can detect invis, so it will be lights out for them now.

    Grab Sofia and have oil. Peace and DOW is declared so often, not even paying attention, just click to close the windows. I have 46 towns. The Soviet clique just loses towns, with an occasional recapture, so they are doomed.
    Italy and Spain are doing a lot of damage, by killing units all over the map and attacking towns. I sometimes come in and snipe them. I deliberately do not put in full attacks on towns, until I have a stack that can take it. Don't want my allies to gain too many towns and block even more tiles.

    3rd in cities, 5th in land, 3rd in pop. 48 towns. Relationships bounce around as war is declared and later peace made. Currently I am at war with only 5 nations. One is the EU neutrals, maybe bribed into declaring on one of the allies. Egypt is another that goes peace and back to war, sometimes versus allies, sometimes Soviets. IOW the Soviets are in rough shape, even with still 99 towns. Poland is down to 4, Czech's are OCC. That is all they have that they can count on to fight.

    I took out the Czech's. Took out Poland. Only 3 nations are at war with France. Sweden is one, lol. 52 towns. Soviets are at 94. They were over 100 and I was at 18.

    Now only Soviets and one other at war with Allied nations. I started on Soviets by capturing Kaliningrad, 53rd town.
    Soviets down to 89 towns and they are the only civ I am at war with at this time. Fr 56 towns. They still drop insurgents every turn. Saboteurs is a more accurate name, I guess.

    To quote Mcfadden and Whitehead, "ain't no stopping us now, were on the move".

    I finally got use to the nomenclature for things in this mod. To spy I was confused as to what the functions were, the buttons. The fortify and wake were also tricking me for the longest time. Did not take the time to
    learn them. Always in a hurry.

    tl;dr
    Failed to look at the units I started with and see what they could do, till late in the game.
    Failed to pay attention to acquire the terminology use for commands.
    Soviets invested too much into invis units and scuds. Those units are fine to use, when way ahead. They are not going to help defend or capture towns, except in the most tangential way.
    Heck of a job on this scenario, GG.
     
  8. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

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    57/86 Yugo goes to war on allies. I move units their way and bomb, then kill a few units in the field.
    Took a Yugo town. They are in mountains, so hard to get to them.

    Got a leader killing a stack of invis, created 2nd army with a Leclerc. ofc 1st had to be disbanded some turns back to make it possible to get the breakthrough.
    13 enemy units in my land, 2 visible. Romania now back at war with the Allies. Israel also at war with Nato.

    59/85 at war with 4 now.
    * 60/85 Been some time, since NATO added a town. Too busy running ships back and forth. Rarely see any units from US on land. I know they mostly are elsewhere, but they had some holdings here and only lost one or two. One that I know of and I recaptured it, but could not hold it.

    USA has had a 64 att 62 def unit sitting on a fortress tile the whole game. Another one just behind it. Maybe could have saved the HQ, or held till got units there. That was the town I could not hold. Maybe it was doomed all along.

    * West Germany is not much better and they had good units at the start, but did nothing. A fair portion of their units that I have seen (early) , have just sat on my airfields from the time I acquired them. Wish they had done some fighting, rather than sit and block me.

    * Is there some value to them holding pretty worthless airfields. At that time, you could not use the airfields for planes as Soviets/Polish would have hit them with scuds and shot them down with fighters. Now they are so far from the front, you can't use them to attack or defend. Still they sit on them and the other civs do it as well.

    * I wish that I could mine a few tiles, not for shields, but to stop the starving cycle. Towns on odd food count and a two food grass tile, could be mined to get only one food. Then the food would be an even number.

    Did not want to tl:dr, but the asterisk are for play play issue. I don't think they can be address by scenario creators, except for maybe the airfields. If they some how are flagged in a way that makes the AI behave as they do.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  9. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

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    61/83
    I really like how the major cities look so much larger than other cities and towns. Moscow looks massive, as it should.

    The Dutch are now active and captured Minsk. I have had to stop expanding in Soviet lands, while I deal with Yugo, as they are in my backlines and have mountainous terrain, slowing things down. I also have to send troops towards Romania as they decided to get froggy. Unit travel times keep elongating as we move the front and the rear gets ever more congested.

    Not seen a scud in some time, nor any planes other than the ones dropping paratroops (invis) to their death. Soviets are thoroughly gassed.

    64/80
    Managed to take a town from Yugo, Soviet and Romania on one turn.

    * I should have mentioned the MLR units. I stopped making them and did not renew my deal for the resource America. This was so I would not be able to build them. They are too strong. I am letting them sit. If they were a move 2 or 1, they would not be so bad. The lethal bombing is not a big deal, but being able to move with the tanks is huge.

    In a std map, artillery is strong. It is less so, because it takes forever to drag them to the next target. This is still done in some tough games. If they had two moves, I don't want to think about that..
     
  10. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

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    Sorry to report that some how the game locked up and I could not get past it. It start the turn and a few of the normal msgs popping up. Then nothing. I gave it a long time, but finally killed it and tried again. Same results.
    What a bummer as I just had Yugo and Romania go to war and I had been waiting to smash them. I had a stack 20 units, including my army outside of Lenningrad, so it was domed. Arg.
    I was too frustrated and I delete the save. The next day I though I could have tried on my prior machine. My new box is a 6 processor and they are of no value to Civ. My older machine may have been able to
    get it to go, I do this stuff to myself all the time. Soviets were down to 70, so it was curtains anyway.
     
  11. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Emperor

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    Sorry to hear that it locked up. Too bad we don't have the save. I know it's frustrating as hell. If it wasn't the unit count, then it probably is a graphics issue. One I haven't spotted yet.

    I'm trying to keep up here. Your posts are great. A few responses are in order.
    -There's always a lot to absorb as far as unit abilities. We all know the basics but it's not always intuitive on who does what. I find that in fantasy mods where you have to learn everything from the ground up.
    -The AI uses Offense-flagged units to hold airfields. And then they never move them again. I pretty much went through every airfield on the map and adjusted to keep them at the most minimal amount possible. The reason they're there is because the air units can't be bombed (due to their hardened air shelters, or at least that's how I play it off). Anything in a city would get obliterated on turn 1 before you ever got to use it. And of course the AI targets player units first.
    -Starvation was always a problem in this mod. In early builds it was mass famine. I don't know that I want to introduce mining just as a cure for red city numbers. I'm trying to keep production low. It actually needs to get lower.
    -Artillery is getting a nerf in the next build. Aircraft too. Nothing too drastic, but they are just too much. This was already done once so it's being done in increments.
    -Related to mining tiles, there's going to be cost increases as well. That's why I like when people post what they and the AI are building late game so I can adjust accordingly. Most of my games never make it past the middle, because by that time my laundry list of corrections is so big I have to stop. Modding is rewarding work, but it has essentially ruined the ability to be player again.

    The updated biq is on post 1. I haven't been able to properly test this because my folders are already altered for the new version. Let me know if there are any issues.
     
  12. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

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    Thank you. I only posted what I thought at the time, but it is not always the best thought. It is just the anal part of me that has to fix everything just so, but I finally just ignored the red starving.
    Later I decided that for my allies to man the airfields, just frees up some of my units to attack. It was a pain in the early part as I had to go around them

    I cracked up at the laundry list, I am sure it is massive early in the testing.
     
  13. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Emperor

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    I know what you mean. :) Compromise, compromise.
     
  14. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Emperor

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    By all means, post it. The nations are stuck in their eras by technology. Any changes to either the techs or to the nations (civs) themselves in the scenario properties tab could affect this. Soviet techs require the non-era tech Marxism-Leninism which the non-socialist nations don't have. It shouldn't affect NATO units, but it would affect NATO buildings and give them access to things they wouldn't normally have.

    This scenario is being worked on right now and here are a few things going on. There will be more in-depth postings, but as a generalization this game is getting leaner with a number of things being cut out. Some of these will be missed, but others are simply unnecessary. At this point, though, getting the game to a state where crashes and failed saves are eliminated or at least reduced is the primary goal. A lot of battalion-sized units have been cut out or amalgamized into brigades. Immobile neutral units are gone and replaced by impassible terrain. Third World countries are going to be pruned.

    In addition, both the unit progression and unit stats are being altered. Each country is getting a shakedown on new units, making their mobilization more robust. Prices for units are going up across the board. Artillery units are having their offensive functions removed and made entirely into bombard units. Air units are getting nerfed, with lethal land bombard minimized or possibly eliminated completely. Ships are what is being worked on right now. Ships are getting a new hp scale which will result in lower hit points. They are going to be heavily exposed to land-based air, as they should be. Right now I'm trying to decide how to change defensive bombard for ships. One possibility was to have it represent long range weapons, while another is to have it represent ASW capability. On the other hand, subs are probably going to get stealth attack, although this may be limited. For example, older models or "coastal" subs may be limited to stealth attacking escorts, while stealth attacking high value targets may be available only to subs with cruise missiles. Giving small diesel-electrics stealth attack may be a good way to strengthen them against a foolish nation that brings high-value ships into shallow waters without overpowering these subs. Input is welcome.

    Maybe a couple surprises coming along as well... :ar15:
     
    Glutius Max likes this.
  15. r16

    r16 not deity

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    don't worry . It is a cultural thing imposed all along . But as Commies we of course need a minimum of 40 divisions .
     
  16. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias Archivist, redux Supporter

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    :woohoo:
     
  17. Rathvilly

    Rathvilly Emperor

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    recently finished a game as the Soviets (political victory, Major General level). The first few turns were hair-raising - lost most of my naval and air assets - but plowed on across Europe. Great scenario - took me a while to work out what everything did. Like the fact you got rid of all the invisibles. The level of detail is incredible - greatly appreciate your work on this.
     
  18. Nanuk

    Nanuk Warlord

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    Yeah I really like that the opening to the war results in mass destruction of armies. That feels very realistic. I remember reading, for example, that UN forces in the Persian Gulf War were fearing the ground war dragging on because they only had enough supplies to last for a few months (or even less), since it was such a massive operation. Logistics wins or loses wars, and so seeing armies eviscerate each other in the opening days of a large conflict, only to result in a prolonged war if neither side can achieve a decisive win by then as both sides scramble to reinforce and rearm, going so far as mobilizing their entire economy... Just fits perfect.

    Also I see people saying that save games are not possible in this mod. Is this a hardware issue or a Civ 3 memory limitation issue?
     
  19. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Emperor

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    Thanks, Rath. I'm glad it went well. The best advice I can give to players trying the Soviets is to jealously guard your navy and save your best fighters (the ones that can bomb) so you can more easily counter NATO's reserve interceptors.

    The heavy attrition of the opening turns was an important part of designing the game for me. In the next version, prices are going up to make mobilization even tougher. This will especially be applied to late game units. Again, this is is simulate not just cost, but the time needed. It still won't be realistic. In reality, it would take months to raise and equipment new units.

    The save game issue is a memory issue. I'm sure it's related to Civ III's single core limit. It's still not gone completely, but hopefully will be improved.

    Here are the changes to naval hit points. Displacement is in short tons. Veterancy, which applies to all naval units, adds 2 hp to each.

    Original version
    up to 6 t - 1 HP
    6-9 t - 2 HP
    9-12 t - 3 HP
    12-20 t - 4 HP
    20-40 t - 5 HP
    40-60 t - 6 HP
    60- 80 t - 7 HP
    80+ t - 8 HP

    New version
    up to 5 t - 1 HP
    5-11 t - 2 HP
    12-24 t - 3 HP
    25-35 t - 4 HP
    35-55 t - 5 HP
    56+ t - 6 HP

    All subs are getting stealth attack. They are divided into three classes. All subs get stealth attack against escort ships, old subs and the basic freighters. Improved subs from the 60s and 70s also can attack cruisers and other subs. Modern 80s subs can attack all of the above plus amphibs and carriers. Defensive bombardment will be based primarily on ASW, but also on ship-to-ship capability. Make sure to compare your attacking hit points against your enemies. The Alfas, for example, have a very high attack/defense due to their advanced automated systems and high speed but only 1 base hit point due to their tiny size. Even the best attack subs will have a tough time trying to target an escorted high value target. Right now, an Akula or 688 might only have a 1 in 3 chance of taking out a big carrier and surviving. So make sure to use your anti-ship missiles! Bombarding remains for missile-launching ships. You can take a pot-shot for a low-risk/low reward attack, or close in and try to wreck your target. While playing, I use a house rule that subs and anti-ship missiles cannot be used to attack land targets. But you can do as you like. The new hit point system should increase the lethality of air attacks.

    There are some changes to air units also. The rate of fire for most aircraft is being lowered. They will still be very effective but not quite as good against ground targets. The removal of lethal land bombard from most aircraft should help reduce their power and increase realism. Sending valuable ships into your enemy's air zone will still be a very bad idea. Some aircraft types are being eliminated or reduced. I'm considering removing much of the strategic bomber fleets. Aircraft like the B-1Bs and FB-111s were specifically set aside for the nuclear mission. A long time ago, I played with a number of alternatives. One was to have these aircraft available after the Nuclear Decision tech. Another was to give them a 99 bombard and huge rate of fire along with a nuke victory animation to simulate tactical strikes, but this wouldn't fit in with the way nuclear weapons are set up because you could just use them with impunity. Or they could just be changed into nuclear weapons themselves and be used up after one attack. We'll see. The Soviet Long Range Aviation Blinders will become naval units for sure, though.

    Artillery also is having a reduced rate of fire. Generally speaking, it will be 3 RoF for tube artillery, 2 RoF for multi-launch rockets, and 1 RoF for ballistic rockets. I'm going to experiment with the Flintlock patch but I want the game to be able to run independently for those that choose to just play the normal version. We'll see how the AI handles these changes. There really aren't enough defensive units to escort the artillery right now.

    What else, what else... U.S. forces have been reduced and altered. The "heavy" brigades are eliminated. Mechanized infantry brigades with 113s will be represented as such. Starting positions along the inter-German border are more historically accurate and designed more to work with the AI's preferences on turn 1. The 4th Marine Division has been removed. A lot of nameless filler reserve units have been taken out from numerous countries. Soviet production is getting a boost. I'm slowly inching back towards the initial build of the game where the Pact has the advantage but I don't want to overdo it. Lots of testing and using the combat calculator to try to get these numbers right.

    Suggestions welcome as always.
     
    Ozymandias likes this.
  20. Nanuk

    Nanuk Warlord

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    For my mod, I used some variants of strategic bombers as nukes, and others as standard bombers. This worked out pretty well, the AI just treated the strategic bombers with the nuke flag as regular nukes. I had to do a little flic editing to get the bomber to attack from the proper angle as the nuke animation comes in from the north, but it was worth it. The way I justified it, was that they have less range than ICBM but would still cost more than IRBM due to the required air unit. The bomber is used up on the attack, but this was treated as needing to manufacture more nukes rather than a new air squadron.

    I also removed lethal land bombardment from conventional air units so that you still need boots on the ground to actually control the land, not just the airspace. Bombers have higher rate of fire than fighters however have less air defense than fighters. Bombers do not have lethal sea bombardment, however fighters do.

    I do have one suggestion. Make "Reserve" and "Conscript" units be the base type, make them cheap, and weak. Introduce some land improvements and buildings that are required alongside of techs in order to build regular units. This would simulate slow and costly mobilization that doesn't require massive amounts of shields or tech research times. Make buildings with the "replace" flag so that if you want a city to be able to train certain units, they can no longer train others. Auto produce hulls, vehicles, and supplies for non-infantry units, that have no attack or defense, that can be upgraded to armored, air, or naval units. This can simulate a nation ordering equipment, but they would still need to train people to man them. I typically do not go the King unit route, myself, but the idea crossed my mind several times.

    Certain nations can unlock more powerful conscripts and reserves over time, while others would upgrade to even weaker variants to represent the breakdown of trade and relations with nations that have more manpower and natural resources/resource reserves. Reserves and conscripts would require no resources, so that the tech unlock that represents the pace of the war reflects early war units vs late war units, as a base (marked obsolete after that tech). If the nation has the required tech and resources for more advanced ones, then they'd obviously build those.

    I have not gone too in-depth with your scenario, only played a turn or two to see how fun it was (very fun), so forgive me if I mentioned already implemented or planned mechanics.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022

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