[RD] The threat to American Democracy

There was no way to reconcile "restore the Soviet Union", no matter how many smiles and handshakes...
But Putin isn't trying to restore the Soviet Union, he's trying to assert Russia's status as a regional power, which he understands to mean bringing neighbouring states into his sphere of influence. American insistence on identifying this with restoration of the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire and/or the Golden Horde is why reconciliation was impossible.
 
But Putin isn't trying to restore the Soviet Union, he's trying to assert Russia's status as a regional power, which he understands to mean bringing neighbouring states into his sphere of influence. American insistence on identifying this with restoration of the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire and/or the Golden Horde is why reconciliation was impossible.
*sigh* I already explained that I wasn't talking about literally restoring "THE Soviet Union" as an entity. I was using "Soviet Union" as shorthand for the formerly Russian controlled/influenced territory.

Jeez TF keep up;)
 
*sigh* I already explained that I wasn't talking about literally restoring "THE Soviet Union" as an entity. I was using "Soviet Union" as shorthand for the formerly Russian controlled/influenced territory.

Jeez TF keep up;)
Sure, I'm taking "Soviet Union" in this case to mean "a rival to the US". Putin came to power as a tentative Western ally, as somebody the West perceived as a stabilising influence, and as I understand, he expected to be allowed to govern Russia as a second-rate power that excercised hegemony over neighbouring status but didn't meddle in America's backyard as his Soviet predecessors had done. The US was unwilling to tolerate this sort of Russian regional hegemony, and while we can debate whether this was due a sincere liberal devotion to the sovereignty of post-Soviet states or due to a vision of universal empire that cannot tolerate peers, only vassals, the end result is the same, rapprochement was impossible as long as America rejected out of hand any concession to Russian status as a regional power.
 
there is happiness , so much happiness , going around about the rounding error that keeps Ukraine in the war . Depicting as some American design is so much frowned upon . Like America can not stand a "regional" Russia should a rough proposition to make these days .
 
Sure, I'm taking "Soviet Union" in this case to mean "a rival to the US". Putin came to power as a tentative Western ally, as somebody the West perceived as a stabilising influence, and as I understand, he expected to be allowed to govern Russia as a second-rate power that excercised hegemony over neighbouring status but didn't meddle in America's backyard as his Soviet predecessors had done. The US was unwilling to tolerate this sort of Russian regional hegemony, and while we can debate whether this was due a sincere liberal devotion to the sovereignty of post-Soviet states or due to a vision of universal empire that cannot tolerate peers, only vassals, the end result is the same, rapprochement was impossible as long as America rejected out of hand any concession to Russian status as a regional power.
So basically... Russia's invasion of Ukraine is USA#1's fault, because, of course it is, like always.

To be clear, it seems like you're essentially spinning an outright invasion war on a neighboring country into a euphemism "bringing neighboring states into his sphere of influence". Putin's not "bringing neighboring states into his sphere of influence". He's engaging in wars of conquest and killing tens of thousands of civilians in the process.

Your take makes it sound like Putin just wants to make fwens to trade wheat for oil and make some water usage treaties and mean ol' Murica won't let him cause we a bunch of meanie bullies lol.

I am fully aware that I have been raised from childhood to regard Russia as the enemy and so I am going to be biased against Russia, as are Muricans in general. I am also aware of the difference between peacefully'ish trying to increase a nation's sphere of influence versus engaging in wars of conquest. Putin can't use the fact that I watched Rocky 4 as a kid to justify his invading Ukraine... and neither can you.
 
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in the days before the American Embassy in Kiev was first evacuated to Lvov , then to Poland . With much joy at the glory of this impressive feat . Ever heard anything like drawing a line in the sand ? It was in an hotel in Poland . You Americans will not have the "soft power" to have this deleted from history . Except of course it is so big a brag that you don't ever want to .
 
Sure, I'm taking "Soviet Union" in this case to mean "a rival to the US". Putin came to power as a tentative Western ally, as somebody the West perceived as a stabilising influence, and as I understand, he expected to be allowed to govern Russia as a second-rate power that excercised hegemony over neighbouring status but didn't meddle in America's backyard as his Soviet predecessors had done. The US was unwilling to tolerate this sort of Russian regional hegemony, and while we can debate whether this was due a sincere liberal devotion to the sovereignty of post-Soviet states or due to a vision of universal empire that cannot tolerate peers, only vassals, the end result is the same, rapprochement was impossible as long as America rejected out of hand any concession to Russian status as a regional power.


Spheres of influence are not granted. They are earned. It's not our fault that Russia collapsed so badly that they could not act as a regionally stabilizing influence. But it is also not our fault that the legacies of both the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union made their former vassals entirely unwilling to be part of their sphere of influence.


Basically what you are asking for is for the US to create and enforce a Russian sphere of influence, where doing so would be both against US interests, and against the expressed desires of the people living in that sphere.
 
the end result is the same, rapprochement was impossible as long as America rejected out of hand any concession to Russian status as a regional power.
Seems like this would have involved actively vetoing the desire of like a half dozen other states to join NATO and maybe the EU over the last twenty years or so.

Maybe Russia could've joined those things too I guess. Maybe one day it will.
 
oh , there has been an edit just as ı was posting . So , like to trap Putin , the CIA arranged Ankara to evacuate Zelensky so that it could be presented as a victory . That is two cargo planes that remained in Kiev for almost the whole year , like "trapped" or something . Israel , unhappy with Zelensky for some reason , had people on the ground to keep him in this palace or HQ or whatever . Rounding error and wear a sweater .


edit: New posts even !
 
For a country that Putin clams is, and always has been, part of Russia, they sure have resisted over the course of history. This is nothing more than a land grab for good Black Sea ports.
 
You can see what is happening in Brazil right now. The libertarians' absolute right to property and the minarchists' love for the state being nothing except police and courts (while decrying ‘police states’) somehow manage to coalesce in ‘stop communism’ and ‘in the name of democracy’ storming the main buildings of all three major branches of government. So yes, once again we notAmericans in the American continent do have reason to complain. US-funded and -coördinated evangelical churches have been spreading this message for ages and now it's finally boiled over.
 
Shoot they're nothing. How about that Covid, huh? Tricky how the US planted the virus in Wuchan so everyone would blame the peaceful, freedom loving People's Republic of China and not the wicked US. Earthquakes in Haiti? Yep, that's us. And our crownng achievement -- climate change. We just to laugh as we pull the puppet strings on every ruler of every country in the world.
 
So basically... Russia's invasion of Ukraine is USA#1's fault, because, of course it is, like always.

To be clear, it seems like you're essentially spinning an outright invasion war on a neighboring country into a euphemism "bringing neighboring states into his sphere of influence". Putin's not "bringing neighboring states into his sphere of influence". He's engaging in wars of conquest and killing tens of thousands of civilians in the process.

Your take makes it sound like Putin just wants to make fwens to trade wheat for oil and make some water usage treaties and mean ol' Murica won't let him cause we a bunch of meanie bullies lol.

I am fully aware that I have been raised from childhood to regard Russia as the enemy and so I am going to be biased against Russia, as are Muricans in general. I am also aware of the difference between peacefully'ish trying to increase a nation's sphere of influence versus engaging in wars of conquest. Putin can't use the fact that I watched Rocky 4 as a kid to justify his invading Ukraine... and neither can you.
Fault for the Russian invasion of Ukraine lies exclusively with Putin's clique, in a way which is honestly pretty rare in international conflict, because it was such a stupid, self-destructing move that it could only be explained as the result of human choice.

What I'm saying is that the American stance towards Russia made confrontation inevitable, not that Putin had to make the specific series of choices he did that would lead to the confrontation taking this form. The two states simply have incompatible ambitions in Eastern Europe, and what Obama characterised as Romney's Cold War hawkish posture was an honest and accurate reflection of those incompatible ambitions, while Obama's doveish posture was for the same reasons dishonest and inaccurate. It's not really good enough to say that if only Russia was a different country, run by different people, then Obama wouldn't have been misrepresenting his policy intentions- or, more charitably, his policy options, because Russia is the country it is, and it is run by the people who run it.

Spheres of influence are not granted. They are earned. It's not our fault that Russia collapsed so badly that they could not act as a regionally stabilizing influence. But it is also not our fault that the legacies of both the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union made their former vassals entirely unwilling to be part of their sphere of influence.


Basically what you are asking for is for the US to create and enforce a Russian sphere of influence, where doing so would be both against US interests, and against the expressed desires of the people living in that sphere.
No, I'm simply saying that as long as the United States refused to recognise a Russian sphere of influence, a confrontational stance towards Russia is inevitable. It is of course entirely up to Russia to obtain recognition of whatever sphere of influence it asserts, and no other country has any obligation to humour it because it was a big deal in the seventies, but my contention here is that the United States is unwilling to recognise a Russian sphere of influence even in principle, and that Obama's doveish posture in the election was consequently dishonest, or at best unrealistic, because there was no rapprochement with Russia without that concession.
 
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You can see what is happening in Brazil right now. The libertarians' absolute right to property and the minarchists' love for the state being nothing except police and courts (while decrying ‘police states’) somehow manage to coalesce in ‘stop communism’ and ‘in the name of democracy’ storming the main buildings of all three major branches of government. So yes, once again we notAmericans in the American continent do have reason to complain. US-funded and -coördinated evangelical churches have been spreading this message for ages and now it's finally boiled over.
So wait Brazil is our fault too :confused:... Jeez... we suck :sad:

Joking aside, when I saw reports on the situation in Brazil, my first thought was that about how similar that looked to Jan 6, particularly wrt Bolsonaro/Trump supporters. I also initially thought it was a little arrogant to think that the US insurrection had caused the Brazillian one, but thinking about it some more, I am reminded that I place substantial blame on severity the global COVID pandemic, on the way the US was (mis)handling it, Trump specifically. So its not a stretch to say that the US had a bad influence on other countries in other significant areas as well.

Still... USA#1
 
as long as the United States refused to recognise a Russian sphere of influence
Influence toward what? At least during the Soviet era, they/someone could imagine that they were offering a political system superior to that of the decadent West. What do they offer neighboring states now? Why is the US under an obligation to honor some "sphere of influence" independent of the content of that influence?

My questions may sound testy, and they partly are, but I'm asking them in earnest. I'm willing to concede I may be a brainwashed anti-Russian American. But if so, avail me of your outside perspective. What does Russia offer toward the thriving of any of its previous dependencies? For what positive thing would it use its influence in that sphere?
 
Fault for the Russian invasion of Ukraine lies exclusively with Putin's clique, in a way which is honestly pretty rare in international conflict, because it was such a stupid, self-destructing move that it could only be explained as the result of human choice.

What I'm saying is that the American stance towards Russia made confrontation inevitable, not that Putin had to make the specific series of choices he did that would lead to the confrontation taking this form. The two states simply have incompatible ambitions in Eastern Europe, and what Obama characterised as Romney's Cold War hawkish posture was an honest and accurate reflection of those incompatible ambitions, while Obama's doveish posture was for the same reasons dishonest and inaccurate. It's not really good enough to say that if only Russia was a different country, run by different people, then Obama wouldn't have been misrepresenting his policy intentions- or, more charitably, his policy options, because Russia is the country it is, and it is run by the people who run it.


No, I'm simply saying that as long as the United States refused to recognise a Russian sphere of influence, a confrontational stance towards Russia is inevitable. It is of course entirely up to Russia to obtain recognition of whatever sphere of influence it asserts, and no other country has any obligation to humour it because it was a big deal in the seventies, but my contention here is that the United States is unwilling to recognise a Russian sphere of influence even in principle, and that Obama's doveish posture in the election was consequently dishonest, or at best unrealistic, because there was no rapprochement with Russia without that concession.
I think I understand, at least part of the argument you are making and to the extent that I do, I'm thinking that I disagree. However, I am also pretty confident that I am missing or misunderstanding at least some part of your argument so I'm going to have to read it again and think more about it, or talk with you some more about it. I do find your argument very interesting, and I admit that I had not really thought about the issue in quite those terms before.

So here is part of my disagreement with the position you seem to be taking. You seem to be starting from a premise that Russia must become a "superpower" again, in the same way that it once was. I reject that premise. Many nations were once world superpowers and no longer are. Maybe one day the US will no longer be a superpower and some other nation will be, China for example. The TV show Firefly implies (or states outright this scenario IIRC). The point is that once a nation is no longer a superpower, for whatever reason, they, specifically their leaders, can accept it, and move on to the country having a new/different role on the world stage. If Putin refuses to do that, that's not Obama's fault. In fact, one of the underlying (if unsaid) purposes of NATO is precisely to prevent Russia from expanding their power, such that they become a major threat to Europe, (or the US) again. But that does not make armed conflict inevitable. Only if Russia's leaders insist that Russia will become a threat to Europe will there be armed conflict.

So for a very oversimplified example... If an Italian Prime Minister announced that they longed for the days when they essentially controlled the entire Mediterranean coastal area, plus what is France, Spain, Turkey, etc... and they wanted to go back to that... ie "restore their sphere of influence" as you put it.. and the US, or any nation FTM, said "Yeah no, we're not cooperating with you restoring the Roman Empire, that's not going to be a thing", that wouldn't be "making conflict with Italy inevitable". It would take the Italian Prime Minister making the decision that he was going to restore the Roman Empire, no matter what anyone else says. If the Italian Prime Minister accepts that he simply cannot restore the Roman Empire through conquest, there will be no armed conflict. That is what makes conflict inevitable, Putin's desire for conflict. You can't pin that on the US.

Another oversimplified example... If you and I are playing a game of RISK with say 5 players. You and I don't have to attack each other at all. in fact we could play the entire game without ever attacking each other. Moreover, we could play the entire game without ever attacking anyone. Now of course you can not win the game this way. But trying to "win" the game is your choice as a player. You can always just defend your territory and have peasant conversation with the other players and enjoy some food and drink. You don't have to "win" the game or "finish" the game. How many times have you played a board game that was never actually finished? We don't want anyone to finish conquering the world IRL. Using my RISK analogy... Putin wants to win, or at least, for starters, to capture Asia and Europe so he can get the bonus armies each turn. That is what is making conflict inevitable, because he can't capture Europe and Asia without attacking other players. The player controlling part of North America refusing to help him and convincing others to help stop him is not the one who is making conflict inevitable. If Putin would just relax, have some beers and enjoy the ballgame on the TV, we would hardly have to roll any dice;), but if Putin wants to conquer the world, that makes conflict inevitable.
 
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only because Americans THINK they are acting for the good of Mankind . You are NOT . Actually if your ELITES had not been BLESSED with such GREAT foresight back in the days before practically everybody in CFC was born , your mighty empire wouldn't have become that mighty in the first place . A Russian sphere of influence enables a far cheaper American umbrella over it , so that everything Russians steal inevitably ends up in American banks in the end . Putin was your best friend , even after he was told what actually happened to Kursk . Putin was your best friend even in 2015 after the Saudis "helped" the shooting of that Su-24 down , because he created yet another barrier in the way of bi-polar Ankara accidentally killing too much of "friendly" Kurds and stuff . You ARE REALLY AFTER the destruction of Russia , but let us avoid the smart ones coming here as well .
 
Influence toward what? At least during the Soviet era, they/someone could imagine that they were offering a political system superior to that of the decadent West. What do they offer neighboring states now? Why is the US under an obligation to honor some "sphere of influence" independent of the content of that influence?

My questions may sound testy, and they partly are, but I'm asking them in earnest. I'm willing to concede I may be a brainwashed anti-Russian American. But if so, avail me of your outside perspective. What does Russia offer toward the thriving of any of its previous dependencies? For what positive thing would it use its influence in that sphere?
Also, again, in this context, "bringing neighboring states into his sphere of influence" isn't really valid. It's a dangerous euphemism at best. Putin invaded Ukraine with the intention of fully conquering it and annexing it as a permanent, no-longer-autonomous part of Russia. He's not trying to bring the nation of Ukraine into Russia's sphere of influence. He's trying to eradicate Ukraine as an entity and just make it part of Russia. He has stated this explicitly.

The US and NATO are flooding Ukraine with weapons to fight off the invasion not frustrating Putin's attempt to bringing neighboring states into his sphere of influence. Putin can use whatever peaceful means he can come up with to increase Russia's sphere of influence and the US/NATO will equally do whatever is in their interests in terms of making sure Russia does not become a bigger threat. Russia was already building a sphere of influence through its oil and gas exports. The problem isn't the US refusal to allow Russia to build influence, its Putin's impatience. He wants to make Russia the superpower it once was now, during his lifetime, while he is Dictator, rather than setting the groundwork for Russia to be a great superpower again in the future.

If Putin can't convince anyone to buy his ice cream fast enough, it's not Obama's fault. Also, thinking about it, Putin already invaded Ukraine previously and conquered Crimea, and the US didn't stop him so even if we were using "bringing neighboring states into his sphere of influence" as a synonym for "invading and conquering", which again, is wrong in my view, it would still be technically inaccurate to say the US prevented Putin from bringing neighboring states into his sphere of influence. The US stood by and let him conquer Crimea. Its just that NATO/US is no longer willing to continue with the appeasement approach in response to Putin's invasions.
 
putin did NOT invade Ukraine . It turned out to be an invasion as America lied and did not prevent the Ukranian resistance . If there is even the slightest nagging doubt that this will turn out to be bad , let me clarify it for you Americans . Your little escapade in Ukraine to secure to Midterms really runs the risk of WW III and hundreds of millions of deaths . 25 or 50 of them might be Americans . It does run a very real risk of the end of the American Democracy . ı don't expect the practiced talking heads give up or anything but gotta be prepared . If you have the storage space , start storing some cans of food .
 
NATO was formed for one reason and one reason only: respond to a Soviet invasion of any member state. That got stretched when 9/11 happened and the US asked NATO members to contribute troops to its "War on Terrorism" but that hasn't been seen since.

The US, the EU and other prosperous nations welcomed Russia into the G8 and began making trade deals with Russia after the collapse of the old USSR. It was even floated, probably briefly, that Russia join NATO. Then Russia started invading small neighboring countries and murdering political opponents. The notion that the Putin Regime was "forced" to launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine because NATO posed some existential threat to Russia is completely detached from reality.
 
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