The Three Pop Challenge

[CrazyG]

Hello everyone. Summer has returned and I'm happy to have time and make another photojournal. Like my other photojournals, this is intended to be a resource to help. Please feel free to ask me questions about my choices and give me your opinion on the challenge.

Spoiler Challenge Rules :

Deity Difficulty
Continents
Standard sized map, 8 civs, 16 city states.
No ancient ruins, events, or tech trading. All other settings are set to default.

Challenge: I cannot grow a city to have more than 3 population. If I capture a city with higher population, I will raze it to 3 population.

Spoiler My Civ and Starting Position :

My first thought is that I want a civ with bonus faith. Many religious beliefs are dependent on population or number of followers, so I want control over my religion. I want strong early game because the AI is very aggressive this patch and likes to claim my land. I pick Ethiopia, the other civ I thought about using was the Celts.

Here is my start (I did reroll twice because I had a floodplain starts). Where to settle?

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler Addis Ababa :

I settle so that I can immediately work the forest, and citizen number 2 can work the Marble. This is an excellent capital, one of the best I've had. I build Stele first (duh).

I will research animal husbandry first, to reveal horses, because Ethiopia has +1 faith to strategic resources. It also leads to construction to build quarries on my luxuries.

The city grows in 5 turns. I took this picture to show an example of when not to grow. The city manager wants to work this 2 food tile. That tile gives me 2 food, and it eats 2 food, contributing nothing at all. The correct play is to work the 3 hammer marble tile to finish the stele faster. If that marble wasn't there, I would just work a 2 hammer hill.

Spoiler After Scouting :

Here is what the land looks like. I believe that Russia will be in the South-Eastern fog, we have territorial disputes already. I hope to settle the natural wonder between us quickly.

I build a worker 2nd (Ethiopia can skip shrines). I am working a cattle tile to grow to 3 population, then I will go back to production focus.

I research pottery to unlock settlers, then mining.

Spoiler Pantheon :

Turn 26 I get my pantheon and receive a free tech. I take my social policy on turn 27. What would you pick? I'll post my choices in the next update.

The picture shows what tiles I'm working, The city is at 3 population as per my challenge rules, cannot grow again. Just an interesting note, I would still work this set of tiles if I had no special rule, they are just the best choice.

I build a warrior, then a settler.

What pantheon, social policy, and free tech would you choose?

 

[chicorbeef]

Are you going to try and complete this game to the end? Because this seems really crazy. I wish you luck and hope you can prove me wrong though!

As for Pantheon...quarry pantheon. You have a few starting Quarries and since you're going to be spamming Stele you could make use of it.

 

[CrazyG]

Are you going to try and complete this game to the end? Because this seems really crazy. I wish you luck and hope you can prove me wrong though!

As for Pantheon...quarry pantheon. You have a few starting Quarries and since you're going to be spamming Stele you could make use of it.

I'm going to try and win, I've played to the Renaissance already.

 

[CppMaster]

I'm going to try and win, I've played to the Renaissance already.

Omg, I'm impressed that you even exist at this point! I can't wait for the rest of the photojournal.

 

[crdvis16]

My first thought is that tradition is a non-starter since opening it would immediately break your rule

Authority is probably the best bet and go on a rampage? Effective warmongering could probably make up for being limited by population. If that's the path you take then the free tech needs to get you progressing further on the bottom half of the tree.

Otherwise I suppose you could go progress and try to settle widely. Maybe having enough cities could make up for the lack of population in any one city.

I imagine the biggest problem you'll have is probably not being able to work specialists much- maybe 1 specialist in a given city and just aim to get 1 great person of each flavor at the relatively low GPP cost of the first one? I would think tourism/culture might be out of the question without being able to work enough writers/artists/musicians?

A diplomacy victory aided by substantial warmongering might be the surest path? Conquer your continent while your population disadvantage is least stark in the early game then switch to diplomacy?

It's an interesting rule though. Often cities only have 3 or so really strong production tiles to work anyway so I wonder if your production won't be THAT much lower than people might expect.

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler Important Decisions :

God of Craftsmen is the pantheon. Its just so strong with Ethiopia, the Stele becomes an 8 yield building for 65 hammers. I not only have my starting monopoly as a quarry, but two additional quarry luxuries in the capital.
Progress is my policy tree. I need a ton of cities, 10 culture for each building and 3 science per city connection are very important.
I took Construction as the free tech. That worker starts improving the Marble. For my next, I go for bronze working. I expect Russia to be aggressive early.

Spoiler Harar :

My worker improves the Marble, Russia pays 8 gold for it.

My second city gets placed. Harar has access to a great natural wonder and 2 quarries, its as strong as a 3 pop city can possibly be. Look at the city automanager, working sheep over a natural wonder. It makes me want to vomit.

Spoiler Tile Porn :

When a six yield tile isn't worthwhile in ancient era.

I built three warriors, which will quickly upgrade to spearmen, then spammed settlers. I'm mostly settling close enough to share tiles with my capital, which is already at its pop cap.

I'm going to attack Russia before she attacks me.

Spoiler War and Tribute :

I didn't get a good picture of the war with Russia, but I did tribute this city state. It puts me to my third policy, I took the gold and worker second and the production for the third.

I stole two workers from Russia and pillaged some tiles, but conquered no cities. 3 spears killed her warriors easily.

Spoiler More Cities :

Arabia settled in a position that hurts me. Those cities are very defensive and block so much land from being settled. We will have to fight him next.

I also built Mausoleum to get a city state quest, it is a lot of faith. I'm rushing towards iron working to get some swords and try to kill Arabia.

That's all for now.

 

[CrazyG]

Authority is probably the best bet and go on a rampage? Effective warmongering could probably make up for being limited by population. If that's the path you take then the free tech needs to get you progressing further on the bottom half of the tree

I think this would be the easiest way to do the challenge. Sweden or Mongolia could probably just rampage on Pangea with authority, but I choose continents to make it more difficult on purpose. I'm going to try and match other empire's economy.

It's an interesting rule though. Often cities only have 3 or so really strong production tiles to work anyway so I wonder if your production won't be THAT much lower than people might expect.

I'm glad someone else sees this. My production is best in the world. Long term, the problem is science and specialists.

 

[amateurgamer88]

This seems like an interesting challenge. However, doesn't Progress make it so that you'll eventually gain more pop than 3? Do you have to starve your city then?

I built three warriors, which will quickly upgrade to warriors,

Just a typo above. Unless you have some super warriors that I want to know of.

 

[CrazyG]

This seems like an interesting challenge. However, doesn't Progress make it so that you'll eventually gain more pop than 3? Do you have to starve your city then?

You can click avoid growth. The cities have enough food but just don't grow.

Thanks for pointing out the typo, I edited it.

 

[Gazebo]

I like this. It’s an extreme stress test of your food < production theory.

G

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler Starvation :

I just took the fourth social policy, which gives 10 food for finishing a building. This means that I can let my cities starve for a few turns to earn more production.

I finished iron working and I start to spam swords everywhere. I settled another city in the south, and I've peaced with Russia. I'm preparing to attack Arabia, I hope the swords are ready before he builds walls.

I found a religion this turn. I built Mausoleum to achieve a city state quest, giving a ton of faith (the wonder itself is meh, its basically a stoneworks with culture). I'll post my religious choices in the next spoiler, in case someone wants to guess

Spoiler Religion :

Founder: Holy Law.
I can get a lot of followers and I'll struggle with science later on.

Follower: Veneration
Very few follower beliefs are valuable with tiny populations. This gives 3 valuable yields, and converts 10% of my faith (which is very high) to gold and culture.

I bought two missionaries, then let my pressure take over.

Spoiler War :

I attack Arabia and kill an archer easy enough. His cities have walls a ton of defensive jungle, with a river to make movement harder. Its going to be a long war.

I'm teching towards mathematics next, and building weapons very quickly. My production is very strong.

Spoiler Stalemate and Society :

The war is a stalemate, I just can't push through the jungle. His ranged units get too much free damage if I go past the jungle. I have to commend the AI here, its doing a great job at defending while having a massive tech disadvantage.

However, I'm steadily gaining experience and I can heal off damage. I still don't have archers invented. I take my next social policy, its 3 science for city connections. The food does nothing other than remove the annoying starvation notifications.

Spoiler Settler Race :

I had to change my initial settling plan here. I force Russia to settle the city in a weak spot though, I beat her by only a turn. A city that can work 2 stone and 1 iron is amazing, even if its tundra.

Cities are building barracks for supply, and forges for production. I'm almost to Arenas and watermills.

Spoiler A Boring War? :

I didn't take many photos of the war, its mostly just sword men fortifying to heal, while killing the occasional archer or warrior. The AI has done a great job of stalling, but I finally have catapults in position.

My border with Russia is totally undefended, however I doubt she will war me because she is at war with Babylon. Everyone else denounced Babylon, so I did too.

Turn 101 enhance, what beliefs would you take?

 

[Moi Magnus]

My production is best in the world. Long term, the problem is science and specialists.

Then culture too. Without guilds, you will be lacking a lot of culture.

As an enhancer belief, I think I would take Iconograph (because it gives you GPP without specialists, if I remember correctly, and allows you to build wonders even if you fall behind in social policies), or Dioceses (because that's always good)

 

[CrazyG]

Then culture too. Without guilds, you will be lacking a lot of culture.

I'm actually still leading the world in social policies, as of the Renaissance. A tiny population city can still have pretty good culture output.

The problem is science, especially since spies are really slow this version. I'm going to wait to continue playing to see if this can be hotfixed, its a massive change that I'm assuming is unintentional/ a bug.

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler Enhanced Religion :

I took Mosques for the second follower belief. They give 2 science per city, and every single point counts. Culture during golden ages is nice to, I have decent golden age point income given that my happiness solves itself.

I took Mendicancy as the enhancer belief. 2 culture and faith per city is a great bonus. All of my trade routes are currently internal production.

I'm confident that Mosques was a good choice, but in hindsight I may have picked the wrong enhancer. I also considered iconography, as it would provide a lot of great people.
Dioceses might have been better too, those golden age points would be good with mosques.

For the free tech I take metal casting, I'm going to try for Colossus. Afer this, I'm teching towards steel to upgrade the swords.

Spoiler First Conquest :

Medina falls at last. He has horsemen now, but I'm finally pushing though. Two swordsmen have march, and one took amphibious to get an important archer kill. The only unit I lose this was is my pathfinder. As per my rules, I will raze the city down to 3 population.

I'm teching towards steel, cities are building barracks/arena/forge first. Then markets, then libraries.

Spoiler Those Bonus Yields :

I'm hauling in culture for buildings. Colossus gets built, I send a production route to my newly conquered Medina.

With longswords I can easily crush his remaining army. I took my last social policy, finishing progress to get steel for free. Longswords are coming out, Arabia is doomed to be a vassal.

Spoiler Great Barrier Reef :

The stupid thing is out of workable range, I didn't see it until now. I almost settled on that gem hill too.

Spoiler Damascus falls :

I capture Damascus and make Arabia my vassal. My religious pressure is crushing him.

Spoiler War Again :

After 15 turns, I go back to war. I want to take his Holy City and purge Buddhism. During this time, I made a promise to Russia that were troopers were just passing through, which I will forget about later. I also get my first golden age.

Reformation time, Russia and most city states have adopted my religion. What would you pick?

 

[Rosaria's Sandwiches]

You're insane. I would choose To The Glory of God as it scales with number of cities (I feel like you'll be going super wide) and since you may lack specialists you can buy the Great Person you want with faith instead!

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler Reformation Belief and a Plan to Win :

I took Holy Land, giving me extra votes for holy sites and increasing city state yields. I have 3 culture city state allies, and every vote is going to count.

I thought about this for a long time, and I think the choice must accompany whatever your second social tree is. All of them are pretty bad given the challenge and I actually considered authority.

Fealty is the worst I think. The food is totally useless, WLTKD isn't important, and a city can't even collect culture for 4 non-specialist citizens. There are diminishing returns to faith.

Artistry is my default choice for Ethiopia. The Stele gets +25% faith during golden ages, and I pretty much always take Mosques with Ethiopia. But this challenge really hurts my number of specialists.

I took statecraft (I actually took it last update but forgot to say), and I'm going to try and win by diplomacy. I feel like I'm on the clock, because long term Babylon is going to out science me big time.

Spoiler Conquest of Arabia :

That coastal city falls easily. I'm ahead in tech, Arabia has no chance.

I researched Machinery to get Notre Dame (the golden age is worth so much production and culture). Most of my trade routes were running production to the capital, in order to let it build wonders.

Spoiler The Other Continent :

I've researched Compass to get caravels and meet the other players. I'm going to try and get printing press first to start the world congress.

I get Indonesia's and Mongolia's embassies. Mongolia looks like a threat.

Spoiler Mecca and Bagdad :

I take the Arabian capital and holy city, allowing me to totally purge Buddhism from the world. I cannot raze capitals, and I will force the city to starve as much as I can. I cannot starve it below 6 population, I will leave all citizens as laborers.

I choose to conquer Bagdad as well. It is has a natural wonder. I will leave Najran to Arabia, keeping him as a vassal. He now gives me a vote for religious authority (Russia does too).

Spoiler Demographics :

A look at the demographics. I'm going to try and get the Forbidden city then discover Printing Press and meet the last major civ.

 

[CrazyG]

Just an update. I tried to apply the most recent DLL to fix spying, and it didn't work. So I returned to the old version. I figure screw it, its a challenge, its supposed to be difficult, bring it on.

 

[CppMaster]

I cannot raze capitals, and I will force the city to starve as much as I can. I cannot starve it below 6 population, I will leave all citizens as laborers.

Why? Is that because you produce enough food even you put all citizens as laborers? You could sell buildings that produce food.

 

[CrazyG]

Why? Is that because you produce enough food even you put all citizens as laborers? You could sell buildings that produce food.

I can't sell the granaries for some reason.

I have a food CS ally and 3 food per city from progress. Even with all laborers, it can't starve forever.