The Trial of Derek Chauvin

[El_Machinae]

Or, if you're the sort that doesn't want to do anything yourself, calling on the state to force other people to be better than you for you.

That resonates. But remember that sometimes people are okay with contributing if they know that others aren't free riding. There's a psychology there. I don't attribute it much moral value, but I recognize it psychologically.

A person who'd never donate $4 to an issue could easily vote to be taxed $10 for it. We see that over and over.

Most of my desire to increase the top marginal tax rate is because we're currently seeing wealth run away upwards to the inheriting class

Doesn't seem particularly so from here.

I mean, we* watch this and listen to its truth selectively, when we want to. Most of us seem to understand that, say, black American men and boys are held to much higher "standards of behavior" by the state, with force. As seems to be the issue <looks around> here?

*careful with the "we" there. It doesn't include those most involved, does it?

*yoinking* this insight

 

[Gori the Grey]

how many of the 117k were stopped by someone with a weapon?

31

 

[Berzerker]

does that mean 117k - 31 stopped stabbing people on their own or were convinced to behave by less violent means? I would have thought most of those people needed encouragement like a weapon in their face

 

[Gori the Grey]

Oh, I thought you meant shot dead by a police officer.

Isn't that what we're talking about--shooting someone dead to prevent the possibility of their injuring someone else with a knife?

 

[Kaitzilla]

That's the bodycam of another officer, there is a youtube that shows the bodycam footage of the officer who fired the shots (flagged as offensive and innappropriate, unlike the other video, so not sure I should post in this forum),

I was able to find a video where all the faces and cursing were blocked out.
The video pauses right before the shots, so it is barely able to be posted here I think.
If it is too much it will get snipped.

**Graphic Warning**

Spoiler CNN News Ma’Khia Bryant Shot :

Definitely a tragedy.

@2:16 not sure what the cop can do


Here's a website talking about it.
https://blacklivesmatter.com/makhia-bryant/

Ma’Khia Bryant
April 23, 2021


At the exact same time the verdict of Derek Chauvin was being read for murdering George Floyd, police wasted no time in senselessly taking another Black child.

Ma’Khia Bryant. We say her name.

Ma’Khia Bryant called the police for help.

Columbus police officer Nicholas Reardon showed up and shot this 16-year-old child point blank within a matter of seconds.

Another Black life stolen with no regard.

Together, we’re going to uplift, center, and honor this Black child for what she loved — doing her hair, making TikToks, and being a teenager. Her account is currently deactivated, but we’ve compiled a few of her TikToks on social media so we can all remember her joy.

Ma’Khia Bryant’s life mattered.

Lebron James tweeted about the officer who opened fire, but quickly had to delete it since it showed the officer's face I think.


Here is a story about cops watching a knife attack and only coming out after it was over.
The knife victim who almost died sued them, but lost since cops have no duty to protect someone.
https://reason.com/2014/10/22/man-gets-stabbed-on-subway-guess-how-hel/

 

[Berzerker]

Oh, I thought you meant shot dead by a police officer.

Isn't that what we're talking about--shooting someone dead to prevent the possibility of their injuring someone else with a knife?

117,000 aggravated assaults involving a knife. So ~1% of serious knife incidents end in a death.

Cop shot a woman to prevent a ~1% chance that she would kill someone else.

Cop made a bad call, statistically speaking.

I'm not sure if aggravated assault requires wounding the victim or threatening them with a knife. Many people will wave a knife around and cool off before arrest but still get charged. There would be many more people killed in knife attacks if deadly weapons were not used to deter attackers. If someone attacked you with a knife and you had a gun would you threaten or shoot the attacker or calculate the risk of death by knife?

Did you say 31 of 117k were killed by cops? If so thats pretty amazing. But you're arguing based on those numbers there was a 1% this girl would have killed her victim. Without looking at the circumstances of the 31 cop killings I suspect imminence was the main factor. This was as imminent as it gets. If Bryant was standing a few yards away threatening the girl and the cop got her attention and she dropped the knife, great. But what if she instead charged at the other girl, do the odds of a knife fatality go up?

So I dont see how we can conclude there was a 1% chance she would have been killed. I'd say there was a 90+% chance the victim would have been critically wounded and then Bryant would have been shot. If no one intervened I think Bryant likely would have killed her unless the victim escaped. But Bryant had her in a bad position trapped against a car and damn near defenseless. I'd say there was a good chance of another knife fatality if someone didn't stop the attack.

 

[Cutlass]

Wrong.

So 1 time in 100 that a cold blooded murder gets enough press attention that they feel they need to convict, and that somehow justifies your belief in a system that murders 1000s of Americans a year?

 

[CaptainF]

I enjoy dismantling bad faith arguments

I see we are blessed with a galaxy brained genius in our midst. Care to dismantle a particularly bad faith argument?

BLM and Protesting

How many cops murdered black people last year?

black people are ~13% of the population, 25% of the people killed by cops, and ~50% of the killers

what do those numbers tell you?

some other race(s) is being killed by cops disproportionately more than black people

Gee, this is really bad faith! It seems the person making this argument is a racist parroting white supremacist talking points. Let's hear from the ADL!

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/1352-1390

The number 13 used in conjunction with either the number 52 or the number 90 is a shorthand reference to racist propaganda claims by white supremacists against African-Americans to depict them as savage and criminal in nature.

In this numeric shorthand, the number 13 refers to the purported percentage of the U.S. population that is African-American. The number 52 refers to the alleged percentage of all murders committed in the U.S. that are committed by African-Americans. Some white supremacists use the number 50 instead of 52.

Similarly, white supremacists claim the number 90 refers to the percentage of violent interracial crime allegedly committed by African-Americans. Some white supremacists cite the 1994 National Crime Victimization Survey produced by the Justice Department as evidence for the percentage. However, this figure does not show up in the survey itself and is not considered an accurate one. In any case, it should be noted that the vast majority of violent crime is intraracial (committed by a person of one race against a person of the same race), not interracial, in nature.

Wow! It seems the poster I quoted likes to use disingenuous stats and outright racism in order to advance the argument that black people are inherently more violent than whites.

I would very much appreciate, Mr. Genius Sir, if you could please dismantle this garbage argument once and for all.

 

[Berzerker]

I see we are blessed with a galaxy brained genius in our midst. Care to dismantle a particularly bad faith argument?

BLM and Protesting

Gee, this is really bad faith! It seems the person making this argument is a racist parroting white supremacist talking points. Let's hear from the ADL!

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/1352-1390

Wow! It seems the poster I quoted likes to use disingenuous stats and outright racism in order to advance the argument that black people are inherently more violent than whites.

I would very much appreciate, Mr. Genius Sir, if you could please dismantle this garbage argument once and for all.

How does 25% fit into your theory? And since you're into symbols, what does ~ mean? It was ~50%... It means about 50%, give or take a few. Wouldn't I be more exact if I was using this code. So that race baiting aside, your link didn't dispute the numbers I posted.

black people are ~13% of the population, 25% of the people killed by cops, and ~50% of the killers

If you have different numbers, post them (and I'll call you a racist). What do those numbers tell you? They tell me the problem is not racist cops, they tell me there are more violent encounters between black men and cops of all colors because of those higher crime rates. How did we get such high crime rates? The drug war created a massive black market that fuels violence, just look at our neighbors south of the border. We deserve mass migration for the havoc we unleashed down there with our wars.

edit: Half the homicides and a quarter of the deaths by cop means somebody else is getting killed more per homicide.

 

[FriendlyFire]

black people are ~13% of the population, 25% of the people killed by cops, and ~50% of the killers

If you have different numbers, post them (and I'll call you a racist). What do those numbers tell you? They tell me the problem is not racist cops, they tell me there are more violent encounters between black men and cops of all colors because of those higher crime rates. How did we get such high crime rates? The drug war created a massive black market that fuels violence, just look at our neighbors south of the border. We deserve mass migration for the havoc we unleashed down there with our wars.

Well Obviously police are racist against WHITES then.
Or someone decided to cherry pick the crime rate for homicides only rather then the crime rate for violent / total crimes.

You need to rethink your use of statistics.
Overall I would agree there is a higher criminality for Blacks and then there is an entire discussion on why this is the case.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2

 

[Bugfatty300]

black people are ~13% of the population, 25% of the people killed by cops, and ~50% of the killers

If you have different numbers, post them (and I'll call you a racist). What do those numbers tell you?

Those numbers tell quite a bit. 13-50 statistic is a common argument made by white supremacists and white "race realist" ethno-nationalist.

How did we get such high crime rates? The drug war...

And why are black crime rates impacted more by the drug war than white crime rates?

 

[Yeekim]

Those numbers tell quite a bit. 13-50 statistic is a common argument made by white supremacists and white "race realist" ethno-nationalist.

Are these numbers wrong?

 

[Kaitzilla]

I think I read somewhere that FBI data tables indicate over 50% when the race of the offender is known. (That means unknowns are excluded)
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/topic-pages/expanded-homicide

Ugh, a 1 to 4 year old killer.
Did they really need a row for infants less than 1 year old?
USA #1 I guess.

 

[Berzerker]

Well Obviously police are racist against WHITES then.
Or someone decided to cherry pick the crime rate for homicides only rather then the crime rate for violent / total crimes.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/

I misread that link (again?), the total at the top was for male and female, not the total of murders, I think thats where I got ~50% of homicides - 14000 and 7500. And that doesn't make sense, there are more than 14k murders listed below.

That was for 2019, so your link says 370 white and 235 black people were killed by cops that year. Of course most of those people were armed or misbehaving so the number of unarmed innocent people is small.

My link says there were about 7500 black murder victims in 2019 and 5800 white victims. Clearly there is more violent crime concentrated in black communities for cops to police, and yet more white people are killed by cops compared to how many murders they commit. I could track down the stats for the race of the murderers but since most crime is intra-racial this makes my case well enough.

There's ~27k murders and 7500 black victims and about 1000 people killed by police in 2019 with 235 black. That shows the number of people killed by police depends in part on the homicide rate cops are policing. About 28-29% of murder victims are black and about 23.5% of the death by cop total.

So 5800 whites were murdered in 2019, thats about 21-22% of 27k and 370 whites killed by cops out of 1,000. Thats 37%. The rate of white people being killed by cops is higher than black people per homicide.

 

[Yeekim]

Here's a website talking about it.
https://blacklivesmatter.com/makhia-bryant/

Am I the only one who finds it rather ironic how that page completely ignores the fact that the child under question was stopped in the process of stabbing another black child?

Have any of their supporters/ affiliated parties / funders questioned this at all?

Pretty strong contrast with e.g. recent Ammesty International/ Navalny controversy.

 

[Berzerker]

Those numbers tell quite a bit. 13-50 statistic is a common argument made by white supremacists and white "race realist" ethno-nationalist.

And why are black crime rates impacted more by the drug war than white crime rates?

I got ~50 by comparing the 14k total from my link with the number of black murder victims (7500), but that 14k was not the total of murder victims, it was the total of male and female victims - and that doesn't make sense, there are about 27k murders in 2019 and only 14k male and female? Whatever. The reason why is the drug war is focused more on black populations. They get a war on drugs, they get a black market and all the violence it produces, and they get it for 5 decades on the heels of Jim Crow.

Are these numbers wrong?

one is, its 13 and ~30

Thats more in line with black murder victims being 28-29% of the total number of people murdered in 2019.

 

[Berzerker]

According to the FBI, African-Americans accounted for 55.9% of all homicide offenders in 2019, with whites 41.1%, and "Other"/Unknown 3.0% in cases where the race was known.[52] Among homicide victims in 2019 where the race was known, 54.7% were black or African-American, 42.3% were white, and 3.1% were of other races.[53][54] The per-capita offending rate for African-Americans was roughly six times higher than that of whites, and the victim rate is a similar figure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

That cant be right, where are the Hispanics and Asians?

Well it doesn't matter, the stats show a correlation between homicides and death by cop for black people.

 

[caketastydelish]

So 1 time in 100 that a cold blooded murder gets enough press attention that they feel they need to convict, and that somehow justifies your belief in a system that murders 1000s of Americans a year?

I never said that justifies my belief in the system. I never even said I support the system. My point is your assumption was wrong. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Samson]

That resonates. But remember that sometimes people are okay with contributing if they know that others aren't free riding. There's a psychology there. I don't attribute it much moral value, but I recognize it psychologically.

A person who'd never donate $4 to an issue could easily vote to be taxed $10 for it. We see that over and over.

Just to pick up on this, I would think it is about everyone and quite morally justified.

I do not have very much to donate, and what I do goes to third world medicine. I would not donate £4 to UK people getting healthcare as that will not give the same bang for my charity buck, but I would (and do) vote to be taxed >£1000 for the funding of the NHS. Is that wrong, or of "not much moral value"?

 

[Sofista]

To recap: sainte Ma’Khia detects anemia in the other girl's system and decides to fix it by placing some iron in her chest. The Devil's spawn prevents her from doing that. While all right-minded people agree that being stabbed is a formative experience.

Honestly, has any news source bothered to ask the other girl's side? Or is it just that everybody loves a witch hunt?